00:00:00Steven Payne
Welcome to the first oral history of the Bronx Aerosol Arts Documentary Project.
My name is Steven Payne, librarian and archivist at the Bronx County Historical
Society. Kurt and Pastor, why don't you introduce yourselves briefly before we
introduce the main event, our guest here?
Kurt Boone
Okay, I'm Kurt Boone, native New Yorker, and I've been writing about urban
culture for 40 years.
Pastor Crespo
I'm Pastor Crespo and I'm a volunteer here at the Bronx County Historical Society.
Steven Payne
All right, thank you. And we're really excited to be here today with the art
legend, BUTCH 2, who came of age in The Bronx during the 1970s and first
achieved fame as a writer for his mastery of wildstyle lettering design and as a
member of The Fantastic Partners (TFP). And there's many other things I could
say about BUTCH 2's stylistic and technical innovations, but we'll ask him to
talk about that in a little bit. For now, we'll start this oral history with a
bit of background. So why don't you tell us a little bit about your family's
history and background and how they ended up in The Bronx.
BUTCH 2
Me born and raised in the Bronx. 1960. My father's from Georgia. Augusta,
Georgia? Yeah. Augusta, Georgia. My mother's from the Bronx. Their union is
pretty much a mystery to me. But they did meet and my mother had four kids. I
got I'm like the guy right in the middle.
Steven Payne
Okay, right in the middle.
BUTCH 2
I got older brother younger brother. I got older sister.
Steven Payne
Okay.
BUTCH 2
Yeah, we grew up around Claremont Parkway with the Third Avenue Ele.
Steven Payne
And I was still standing. Yes. Yeah.
BUTCH 2
Right. And because matter of fact, I think our window was right level with the
Ele because you can hear it going by
Steven Payne
okay.
BUTCH 2
But I don't think the trains really interested me then. You know, people were
tagging and stuff like that. But I think it was more that point in time, people
I think got more fun out of hitchhiking on the bus hitchhiking on the train. It
wasn't really grabbed.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
BUTCH 2
you know. I think graffiti might have caught me. When after we left on Third
Avenue. We moved to Washington Avenue before Claremont Projects came up.
Steven Payne
Okay. Okay.
BUTCH 2
And from there we went, we moved to Hunts Point. And that's that's where it all
basically started the 6 line. I live by Whitlock, between Whitlock and Hunts
Point. So we on the corner and we playing and we playing Johnny whatever. The
pumpkin, you would see the trains come off the tunnel.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
And I think one day I saw a Take Five.
Steven Payne
Okay.
BUTCH 2
And I think that changed my whole everything, you know, with the with the fire
hydrant with the flames. Yeah, that that's what graffiti first grabbed me.
Steven Payne
How old were you?
BUTCH 2
I think I might have been 11 or 12
Steven Payne
11 or 12.
BUTCH 2
Yeah.
Steven Payne
And had art interest you much before that? Time. Yeah.
BUTCH 2
In junior high school. You know, it's funny. There's a photograph. Ah, we're in
art class and everybody sitting around, we might have had an art. What do you
call it like a project.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
And everybody was, you know, drawing and doing whatever they got to do. They
want us to draw a bowl of fruit. They want to draw some pepper shaker. My
project was on the blackboard.
Steven Payne
Ah, okay.
BUTCH 2
And I had to tape paper all the way down. But that's how I started working big
for the beginning.
Steven Payne
Wow. Yeah.
BUTCH 2
And there's a picture of that in my high school yearbook. Somebody had that
photo. Oh, but yeah, that's when it kind of started. I just love art.
Steven Payne
Yeah. Which High School was.
BUTCH 2
I went to junior high school 123 its on Bruckner Boulevard and Larson.
Steven Payne
Okay, okay.
BUTCH 2
Yeah, I was about 11 years old. Writing on the buses was big thing.
Steven Payne
Okay,
BUTCH 2
you know, because on the way home everybody pull out, they little markers were
like this big.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
And, um, I was telling you before everybody had a graffiti name, everybody.
Steven Payne
Yes.
BUTCH 2
You know, just like when a Rap first started. Everybody had a rap name. You
could have been cool, cool. Stevie D. You know, Steve ski in MC Stevie Steve
that? That was the format.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
BUTCH 2
you know, I was you know either the street you live on?
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
I think I was Butch 179 or something. And then I was like, nah. I'm gonna do
Butch One. And there was this one guy my junior high school named Keith Keith
for Bronx River and God bless he's dead. He passed away a long time ago. But he
came up and said, I'm Butch One! You know what I said? I'm Butch Two
00:05:00
Steven Payne
easy.
BUTCH 2
And went from there.
Kurt Boone
Why was Is Butch your nickname?
BUTCH 2
That's my nickname. My brothers and sisters gave me that there used to be a,
just to bring that up real quick. There was a cartoon Bozo. Who was his
sidekick, Butch?
Kurt Boone
Butch, Oh, okay.
BUTCH 2
And they used to call me that and I didn't like it at first but it kind of
stuck. It kind of stuck. But yeah, that's where that came from. And it went from
there some guys after the Graff, that's when hip hop started with you know MCing
DJing. People kind of migrated to that.
Steven Payne
I see
BUTCH 2
a lot of guys you know, threw the magic marker away, picked up a microphone. You
know, but I'm just kind of stuck with Graff maybe because I never could really
get the concept of of rapping, you know, you know, and then that freestyle I was
never that the best at it. So I stuck with the Graff.
Steven Payne
Stuck with the Graff yeah yeah,
Kurt Boone
You were telling me the other day about we talked a little bit about the movie
Fort Apache you wasn't really into it, but you you grew up in that in that neighborhood
BUTCH 2
Yeah down the street.
Kurt Boone
That was 41st precinct. So explain what it was liking you know, you know,
obviously a lot of gangs you you didn't get into any gangs.
BUTCH 2
I think I might have. I might have been a Young Javelin or something,
Steven Payne
young javelin, okay. The Royal javelins was the
BUTCH 2
The main guys they was. Yeah, it was in the Nomads, the Skulls, the Immortals,
the Javelins, you know, it was a lot of gangs best bet don't even go up towards
Simpson Street.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
BUTCH 2
don't go to Simpson Street. Because shits happens up there. But then it wasn't
really guns back then. It was more zip guns. You make your own little zip guns.
And yeah, if you had that you was a bad man.
Steven Payne
Yeah, yeah.
BUTCH 2
Nowadays, I just don't understand it.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
People running around. Yeah, yeah, they catching people. 17 and 18 years old to
adults. And
Steven Payne
I know,
BUTCH 2
in different stuff. I'm like, wow, Yeah. But that's how the Graff started with
me. Because there was a story I heard about a rapper. I won't even mention his
name, but it's a rapper. And they matter of fact the group went to the Rock and
Roll Hall of Fame. But he gave his story and said he wasn't good at writing.
Steven Payne
Ah,
BUTCH 2
he couldn't really do the wildstyle and all that.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
Which is why he left and went again started rapping.
Steven Payne
Ah, I see. I see so it went back and forth huh.
BUTCH 2
see with me. Yeah, so that said, everybody was looking for their niche.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
BUTCH 2
you know, and I'm creative so I stayed with the Graff.
Yeah, absolutely.
Kurt Boone
Now you you were in the competition and you. You submitted your art to Music &
Art high school. And you got to admitted right.
BUTCH 2
Oh, yeah. I told myself. I'm not going to a local high school.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
We had you have Monroe, Stevenson, Roosevelt. That's like being on the block.
You ever go come outside and sit on the stoop? That's what it's like. Everybody,
you know, everybody. So I told you, I made a promise to myself that I would I
would not I would never go to a local high school.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
But I wanted to go to Clinton for the football team. Because back then Clinton
had the main football guys.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
BUTCH 2
Clinton Truman, Evander those were, the football schools. Um, but I put together
they told me I took the test for Music and Art. And they said, Well, you submit
your portfolio and I I didn't know what a portfolio was portfolio. But I had a
small envelope, a manila envelope. And I put a few sketches in there.
Steven Payne
Okay.
BUTCH 2
And I got accepted.
Steven Payne
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So before before we get more into into your high school
experience, Cause you mentioned football already. You were telling me earlier
how you used to play football out in the street and football was something that
you were really, really into for a period of time.
BUTCH 2
Yes, yes, that's true. Oh, I was in love with football. I think my team back
then ..... It was at about '72. Because Sunoco, the gas station. They used to
give out stamps of different players. And then you put that in your in a book.
It's like a big everyday I would would come across a Bruckner to go down to my
00:10:00boy's house on Evergreen to get stamps to go home and put them in my book. And I
had that book, till. Not long ago, but yeah. Never heard of Pop Warner.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
You know, I had bought my own helmet, my own shoulder pads. I was a little guy.
I think I might have weighed 120 or something. So, you know, I was intent on
bulking up and, and stuff like that. Um, I maybe I didn't ask enough questions,
but I never made it into any Football League.
Steven Payne
Yeah, yeah.
BUTCH 2
We used to play football. Like I said, right outside.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
BUTCH 2
I put on my helmet. Shoulder Pads. You know, I think my favorite team was the
Vikings back then. Because you had all the Purple People-Eaters. I used to like them.
Steven Payne
Yeah. Did you ever get injured while while playing football out on the streets?
BUTCH 2
Oh, no. But I think I had some animosity from my brothers. And we used to play
they would play. And I realized later on that I should have been more of a
defensive guy.
Steven Payne
Okay,
BUTCH 2
because you can hit people legally. Legally, especially when you learn where to
hit him at. But, uh, I was the one always wanting the ball, which it still can
be defensive. Because if I'm the defense and you got the ball, I'm coming after
you. But oh, yeah, my brothers and them They used to try to, you know, late hits
and stuff like that.
Kurt Boone
You had equipment on out on the street or you went to the park?
BUTCH 2
Right outside.
Kurt Boone
That's interesting. You played tackle right on the street?
BUTCH 2
We played tackle right in the street right in the street. Yeah.
Steven Payne
What what are the things would y'all do for fun in the neighborhood?
BUTCH 2
Oh, yeah. I mean, back then, I had the helmet and the shoulder pads. I had the
catcher's mitt with the catcher's glove. We had, you know, the stickball bats,
and basketball a lot of sports a lot of sports, you know, um, but that's what we
did. I mean, we did the normal Johnny on the pony stuff. And Ring a Leave E Oh,
you know, we did all that.
Steven Payne
All of that. Yeah.
BUTCH 2
Pretty decent upbringing. Yeah.
Steven Payne
And as far as, as far as growing up goes, what kinds of music do you remember
listening to either in your house or on the street?
BUTCH 2
Oh, um, before Hip Hop. This is before Hip Hop. Yeah, because I remember in 1979
We were already living on 179th Street. And we first heard Rapper's Delight and
all that. But before that, we used to do the Stylistics you know, all those
guys. We used to chat we used to it was a couple of we used to have kissing
contests. You got to get the girl as your partner you got I mean you kissing
until slob was running... But that was the reason that was almost like Spin-the-Bottle.
Kurt Boone
Like Spin-the-Bottle, yeah.
Steven Payne
the parties did you do.... down in the basement. The hookie parties
BUTCH 2
Nah, school was where it was at. I might go to school and not go to class.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
BUTCH 2
So we never didn't go to school.
Steven Payne
Okay,
BUTCH 2
School is, where everythings at. All the people. We wasn't even into the weed or
the drink or nothing like that until I got to high school and there was one guy.
DAVID MOSS. He used to write Kill One Kill One and ah. He was like a friend of
mine but he used to always come up I got that Acapulco Gold yeah and then hand
it to me. I take a couple of puffs again. I'm just sitting here like this for
like the next two hours. You know, funny thing though. Yeah. Funny thing is oh,
he was a writer too. He did some lay-ups and and everything. But it was just a
thing that happened to him. He had a ...that's the job. He had Let me turn this
off he had stuck his head out the window of a moving train and got hit by the
traffic light. Turn around Boom!. So he has a nasty scar. Yeah, yeah. Oh. But
that's what happened at Music and Art. But then later on I really realized I try
to call Music & Art like the cousins to Art & Design.
Steven Payne
Okay.
BUTCH 2
But it's really not we took we had art classes and we had our projects to do but
Music and Art was really for Performing Arts.
00:15:00
Steven Payne
Okay. I see
BUTCH 2
Acting.
Steven Payne
Yeah. So not really what not really what you were into looking to get into?
BUTCH 2
No not true, because a few actors came from that school.
Steven Payne
Okay, okay.
BUTCH 2
A few actors um. Marlon Wayans Jimmy Castor I don't know if your Jimmy Castor he
went to Music & Art. I think did Wesley Snipes or somebody got to Music & Art,
but they spinned-out a few guys
Kurt Boone
Was it like Fame the TV show.
BUTCH 2
That's what it was based on the Performing arts.
Kurt Boone
The performing arts from the musical high school Fame TV show was based on it.
BUTCH 2
Yeah, but not like I was not really dedicated but then a lot of new shit started
coming up.
Steven Payne
Ok, yeah.
BUTCH 2
Crews, Graff. I don't know why these guys used to come to my school all the
time. Shouldn't y'all be in school? Yo, Butch. I Come outside and there was like
three or four guys waiting on me well you know I got to go to class. You know?
That kind of derailed me.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
Now, they coming up and you got there was one girl Karen. She used to ah we used
to hang out at her house because she was like over on Broadway, Amsterdam. But
she kept ah weed.
Steven Payne
Okay, yeah.
BUTCH 2
But I was not really into weed like that. Never was
Steven Payne
yeah, no.
BUTCH 2
I mean, I had a crew called Cheeba Action because we after a while we did start
that everyday shit. Yeah, but that's
Kurt Boone
Music & Art where was that at? That was ah
BUTCH 2
The original Music & Art is now it's called A. Philip Randolph.
Kurt Boone
Okay.
BUTCH 2
It's on 135th and St. Nicholas Terrace.
Steven Payne
Okay.
BUTCH 2
You come down. 136 and you get to the park. Okay. It's at the top. You can see
it's like a castle.
Kurt Boone
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
It's A. Philip Randolph now. But Music & Art, I moved down to Lincoln Center.
Steven Payne
Ah, okay. Okay.
BUTCH 2
It's Lincoln Lincoln Center.
Steven Payne
Yeah. And what was what was your overall experience like in high school?
BUTCH 2
It was, uh I don't know. I think like I said, different things started coming
into play a lot of different stuff. So I would go to school and not go to class.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
BUTCH 2
Stuff like that.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
Ah, my academic history. I was in 1-1, 2-1, 3-1, 4-1, 5-1, 6-1, 7-SPE. And then
I when I went to eighth grade, I went to 8-3 I thought the world was ending 8-3.
Oh, my God. And then oh, I got to Music & Art and everybody's smart. Everybody's
getting top grades. So I'm not really the star of the show no more. You know?
And I wasn't really like what I learned about college. It's like, you can't come
home and just steal your books and gone outside. You have to sit down and do
what you got to do. You got homework and shit.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
I wasn't doing that.
Steven Payne
Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like you were using in elementary and junior high. It just
came naturally to you.
BUTCH 2
Yeah, it did.
Steven Payne
Yeah, I didn't really have to study much or anything else.
BUTCH 2
When you got with but when you get up to the higher grades its a little more
complicated, because now you got to do algebra, geometry, trigonometry. And you
got to you got to figure that out. It's not that simple.
Steven Payne
Yeah. And what were the teachers like for you in elementary and junior and high school?
BUTCH 2
I loved all my teachers. they were, good. It was one Miss Glazer. And I went
back. I had to go I couldn't find her. But she's the one that kind of stunned my
application all you you're going for Music & Art. Like you're not gonna make it.
And when I got to when I made it, I personally was going back to show her.
Steven Payne
Yeah, yeah.
BUTCH 2
Miss Glazer.
Steven Payne
Okay. Yeah. Well, if she if she's still around.
BUTCH 2
I think you know she's long gone. I think when I went to Music & Art it was '74.
Steven Payne
Yeah. Wow.
BUTCH 2
And now my name is starting to become more known and people know me and this and
that I got a girlfriend and I got a thousand reasons not to go to class. Again,
when I finally do go, I'm not prepared. And stuff like that. So that thing's got
tumultuous around the 10th grade.
Kurt Boone
You were already painting trains at that time too.
BUTCH 2
Yeah, yeah, I had hit whole cars at that time, I was going with a girl that
lived across the street from 123.
Steven Payne
Okay, okay.
BUTCH 2
And I just go to her house. I still talk to her on Facebook. Um, can't get her
to come over. But
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
But yeah, I did my first piece on that bridge, right there across from 1569
00:20:00Bruckner Boulevard. It's her building and we 123 is right across the street. And
there's a little bridge that takes you to the other side of Bruckner.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
BUTCH 2
I did a piece on that bridge. And I had that picture. I lost it.
Steven Payne
Oh, that's too bad
BUTCH 2
yeah.
Steven Payne
Wow. Wait. So So were you in junior high school when you did that first piece?
BUTCH 2
UmHmm
Steven Payne
Okay. Wow. So, so when you saw when you had that experience in, you know,
looking at the 6 line, you must have started writing pretty much very shortly
after that.
BUTCH 2
Yeah. Yeah. It was easy I mean. If you're like a daredevil, it's easy, because
we would have to go up and go on tracks. And step up on the third rail.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
It's been some fatalities through the years a few people died.
Steven Payne
Sure,
BUTCH 2
Messing with trains. But we would go and then now we're forming a little crew.
Now you got guys to go with you. And it might be four or five, six of us. Right
up on um Soundview?
Steven Payne
Yeah,
BUTCH 2
The trains was right there.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
And when the temperature dropped, they will put him in a tunnel. And we would
really go for it.
Steven Payne
and make it easy for you. Yeah. Otherwise, you'd have to balance and
BUTCH 2
Yeah, but we knew how to we knew how to get through the track to the "Ele." pole
and go down the pole. You know, we had escape techniques and stuff.
Steven Payne
Wow.
BUTCH 2
Um, yeah, that's when they they tried to say that the 6 line the 6 train was
like a toy line. Oh, ya'll hit the 6 because we but at this point we're the 6 boys
Steven Payne
Yeah,
BUTCH 2
The 6 boys. And you got guys ah y'all the 6 boys. Come on, man. the 6. The 6 is
toy line. Y'all got oh, you King of the 6. Come on, man. So what we did we
banded together and we moved over to the 5 train. We go on we we are now coming
to Broadway.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
And that's what we went hard. We went hard. We did a piece and Bob will tell you
we're invading 5. we're invading the 5. And then we just went off. And that's
when we I guess you, you big time now.
Steven Payne
Yeah, yeah. Graduating from the 6 to the 5
BUTCH 2
Yeah. Yeah,
Steven Payne
yeah. Wow. Yeah.
BUTCH 2
2s and 5s.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
And the 5 train wasn't that far. So we, you know, we never had problems because
within the Graff world you have conflicts with different people and territorial
and this, we never had that. Never. I've never had problems with that. I've
never got arrested for graffiti.
Kurt Boone
So Daniel's squad They never got you.
BUTCH 2
Never.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
BUTCH 2
They used to come down to 149th Street and just say hi, they will just they
wanted to see who was who?
Kurt Boone
Ahh, see the faces.
BUTCH 2
Pretty much. But see it's different now because of you. If you destroyed state
property or something, they'll look for your name on Facebook.
Kurt Boone
Ah fuck that.
BUTCH 2
They look for you. Yeah,
Steven Payne
For sure.
BUTCH 2
Yeah,
Steven Payne
Sure. So let me see. I think maybe just one or two more questions, and then
we'll get you know, fully into into the Graff world. But just a couple of
questions about growing up. What are some things that you remember eating in
your household? While growing up?
BUTCH 2
I love my mom's she does cook. My mom's is a good cook.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
On Sundays. I think we By 2 o'clock in the afternoon, we are eating dinner.
Steven Payne
Okay
BUTCH 2
with that. See got I accustomed to that.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
BUTCH 2
See I can get up at 6, 7, 8 o'clock in the morning and start dinner.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
BUTCH 2
You know, but then she would send you out for the Sunday paper. But that's when
the Daily News was like $1. I think now it's maybe $3.
Steven Payne
Yeah, I think so.
BUTCH 2
But uh, my mom's did your baking and she fried chicken and your meatloaf everything.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
BUTCH 2
Spaghetti. All of that, the only thing I didn't like was creamed corn.
Steven Payne
Oh, okay.
BUTCH 2
I think I think I get the hives. All of a sudden I was like, yo, and then I
looked it was like a big welt, and I was like and I never ate it again. And I
had to be like eight.
Steven Payne
Okay, yeah.
BUTCH 2
8 or 9 never ate it again. I'm 61. Never!
Steven Payne
Did your dad ever cook?
BUTCH 2
Nah, I think oh, they had split my father was living on Webster Avenue.
Steven Payne
Oh, okay. Okay,
BUTCH 2
In a basement apartment. My grandmother his mom lived around the corner on Clay.
Steven Payne
Ah, okay. Okay.
BUTCH 2
You know. But yeah, I guess they, he did his thing over there. I used to go see
00:25:00them. I'm that type. I always go visit my aunts and uncles. And this and that.
That was my thing. You know, um, yeah, before I was cooking, cause I cook now.
Steven Payne
Okay.
BUTCH 2
And I know my way around the kitchen because you know how mom was like "get me a
onion." You don't got not that big. So now your mind you know what to do?
Steven Payne
Yeah, for sure.
BUTCH 2
Yeah. My mom's cooks. I cook. I think my daughter's a good cook, too.
Steven Payne
Oh, okay. Okay. So yeah. When would y'all ever visit your your father's family
back in Georgia? Did anyone stay in Georgia or did everyone?
BUTCH 2
No, my daughter and them is in Georgia now but Elaine is my father's youngest
sister my aunt.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
Which she gets a kick out of calling me nephew because we're about the same age.
She's in Virginia. She invited me down. At least we're pretty much reconnecting
right now. We we talk and everything. She invited me down. But no we never went
back to Augusta, Georgia.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
My father's history. I'm not too knowledgeable about that. You know, my mom. She
was like a bunch of brothers and sisters. You know, back in the days it would be
grandma had 10 kids.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
Grandma had 10 kids. I don't even know if the birth birth control existed.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
BUTCH 2
I don't know. But um, yeah, she was the oldest and everything so. And she was
like the last surviving member of her family too.
Steven Payne
wow.
BUTCH 2
Yeah. But um, we, my moms she always talked about like, family reunion. No, we
never did that. Everybody been doing their own thing. You know? It's kind of
hard to pull them together or people will sell you dreams. Okay. Yeah. And then
no-shows. Yeah.
Steven Payne
Yeah. Well Kurt, why don't you go ahead and start asking some more questions aboutnGraff.
Kurt Boone
I wanted to kind of like, you went, you graduated from Music & Art?
BUTCH 2
No, I didn't.
Kurt Boone
Okay,
BUTCH 2
I got in trouble in the 10th grade and I wound up getting a prison sentence.
Kurt Boone
You wanna talk about that a little. I mean, not not to what you did, but you
know, what was that experience like? You know.
BUTCH 2
17 in a state prison. What was that experience Like? Hmm?
Kurt Boone
So you? You went upstate? Out of Rikers you was in Rikers but then you went upstate.
BUTCH 2
Yeah.
Kurt Boone
Okay. Yes, so you was pretty young in there.
BUTCH 2
Seventeen.
Kurt Boone
That's young.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
Kurt Boone
In an adult prison. That's pretty.
BUTCH 2
Oh, I had gotten my GED. end up getting my GED and get the highest grade out of everybody.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
Um, when I came home in '79, around November, because when you was getting
closer to your release, I tried to get into college up there.
Steven Payne
Oh,
BUTCH 2
And they wouldn't let me for I think it was a violent crime, whatever they
classified to say no.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
So what I did was say as soon as I get out, I'm going to college.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
And they said, because my GED was a 242 was my score. You have to have 300 or
better to go to a university. So that 242 I ended up in Bronx Commjunity College.
Steven Payne
Sure. Yeah.
BUTCH 2
I, I think, um, no, I didn't graduate from there. But um, I have for 66 credits
to graduate. I think I had 62.
Steven Payne
Oh, yeah. Right.
Kurt Boone
You were close.
BUTCH 2
Um, reason being, I had a job with two guys on Arthur Avenue. It was like it was
a TAP program, tuition assistance program, something like that. And they
convinced me to stay. I needed one more class, which was a pre precalculus.
Steven Payne
Oh,
BUTCH 2
And I was trying to take it at night and there was not enough people
registering. So I never got that class.
Steven Payne
Yeah. Yeah.
BUTCH 2
They were giving up a couple people. I knew had got their honorary degree, you know,
Steven Payne
yeah.
BUTCH 2
But you have to go back to the math department or to whatever department and
state your case and whatever and it's up to their discretion, but I think I was
trying to get back in and it just never worked.
Kurt Boone
Okay. So what was your your first introduction to style writing. So obviously,
00:30:00you're in the game, they're, you know, they not just putting up they name in
your way. You got to develop a form to get some respect. So when did you start
kind of like working on your craft? And did you see any other artist that you
wanted to innovate for afterwards? Saw them do you want to do your own kind of
innovation and style-writing.
BUTCH 2
That's just what Graff is all about. It's just creative. You know, anybody can
just do a B U T, but it's how you do it?
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
You know, it's about innovation. That's what the game is about innovation
creating. Like you got guys that have different, 10 different names. I got one
name, but I'm gonna work hard each time to change it up. Like you asked me
before that I have other names. I had a couple of names and stuff. It's certain
letters that a kind of intrigued me like at the N that goes like that with the
base that so I came up with Nino or something crazy.
Steven Payne
Yeah, just to highlight that letter.
Kurt Boone
Highlight the letter.
BUTCH 2
Yeah, but I um. I just see nowadays everybody's just adding arrows and stuff. I
mean, come man. There's got to be more than that.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
Well, yeah, I just always, always created always sometimes we would sit around a
table all day.
Steven Payne
Wow.
BUTCH 2
All day.
Kurt Boone
Oh so you were using your the black-books first before before you went to New
York City.
BUTCH 2
Nah, nah . Black Books are for keeps you maybe more like a sketchpad.
Kurt Boone
More like a sketchpad okay.
Steven Payne
Everyone would be spread out.
BUTCH 2
Yeah. sitting around and you know you get your little critique, but then you got
some guys who try to criticize you like, come on. You always gonna to get that.
Steven Payne
Yeah. Did y'all ever look at like, like different kinds of type faces or like
things like that? Or did you pretty much just kept it within what you all were
doing? Did you look at like, calligraphy or things like that ever to get inspiration?
BUTCH 2
Yeah, we had characters, we did faces characters, different letters. Sometimes
it's calligraphy and things like that is what gives you different ideas.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
Sometimes you look at that and figure I can take that and do this.
Steven Payne
Yeah, for sure.
BUTCH 2
Yeah,
Steven Payne
for sure.
BUTCH 2
Everything is ah inspiration.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
Everything.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
I could look over here and see that box and say I'm gionna do box letters.
Steven Payne
Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
BUTCH 2
Oh, shit. I can make the 3-D flowing back like that.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
Everything is great. How do you usually use just see it like that? That's how
you see.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
Kurt Boone
So how was it learning how to use the spray paint can cause there's an art in
just creating art with the spray can versus the brush. Did you experiment with
it first. or you just went out there and got it naturally?
BUTCH 2
A little bit of both a little bit of both. But the game's changed. I mean, even
as far as just faded colors, faded 3D, explosions, fire. All that's changed.
There's just a lot more. But yeah, you experiment you like the saying goes, you
learn something new every day. You got to try it though. It doesn't always work.
Which comes, trial and error.
Kurt Boone
Right, right.
Steven Payne
Do you remember the first spray paint can you ever picked up?
BUTCH 2
It's probably Red Devil. Right. Back then it was Krylon Red Devil and Rustoleum.
Those were the three major brands that I think today. It's a spray paint's a big market.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
See, now they got Montana. They got a bunch of other brands, you got some guys.
from Germany doing something that's paint for Loop there's another paint called
Double A or something. But it's the quality and the pressure. Because high
pressure means it'll spit fast. So if you don't know that, it's just gonna be
all kinds of drips.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
So they have other paint that was low pressure, just kind of spit slow. Which is
what you want? Pretty much.
Steven Payne
sure.
BUTCH 2
You know, oh, if you get high pressure, that's probably if you're doing
something like this. And you have the right cap.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
You can probably fill in fast. Yeah. But I learned about that pressure thing
quick. Yeah, because I'm doing what I normally do, but I'm ruining it somehow.
And you can't not like a canvas where you could just white it out. See you can't
do that on the trains.
Steven Payne
Did you have guys that you were that you were running with who had already had a
00:35:00little more experience and were able to teach you or you all kind of just go
into it. And experimenting.
BUTCH 2
Oh, physically just going in. But I mean, we had a lot of guys. That can talk to
you about almost like the facts of life the facts of Graff.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
Like Yeah, like big brothers sure uncle's like Stan 153. God bless he's dead
Phase Two. I used to go to Stan's house like all the time.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
And just watch him paint.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
And it still things he did that I never figured out.
Steven Payne
Really?
BUTCH 2
Yeah. Oh, but that's that's the canvas. That's when the game trans transferred
like over the canvases and stuff.
Steven Payne
Okay. Okay.
BUTCH 2
Because he was always intent on trying to do he was like an illustrator. He
wanted to do a comic book.
Steven Payne
Yeah, yeah.
BUTCH 2
Type of guy we used to go and sit down and watch him draw and help him with the
dialogue and stuff like that. But as far as learning how to paint, you just
learn on your own.
Steven Payne
learn on your own.
BUTCH 2
Yeah, that's the only way you could do it.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
Kurt Boone
So you, your career. You you kind of spent a lot of time doing whole cars versus
throw-ups, the throw-ups would be smaller and do a quick, the whole cars is a
lot more work. So what tell us what goes into painting a whole ar.
BUTCH 2
It's a production. A production is just so gotta have a theme. Sometimes you
have to have a blueprint. Yeah. It's really obvious. And then you have to have
the paint you know, sometimes teamwork you have certain guys that, like I was
back then I was when we was on the 6s. And some of the early days on the 5 I'm
like the like the, not to brag, but the brains of the whole operation. You know,
I I can do the outlines. Everybody's. While he's coming behind me filling in.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
Then I come back to do 3D. You know, and then all the way down while he's doing
you know, it was It was an operation.
Steven Payne
Wow.
BUTCH 2
You know, and yeah, it was the objective was to do the whole car. Even if you
just did three different names, connected him with a cloud and then just did all
kinds of explosions and stuff. Just to cover the whole train.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
Yeah.
Steven Payne
How old were you when you did your first entire car?
BUTCH 2
I think I did a silver and black, top to bottom when I was about 13 cars and I
had that picture give you a quick story about my photo albums every time we
would get in trouble but one of my partner's Case 2 would come to my house and
get the books.
Steven Payne
Yeah
BUTCH 2
Hey Mrs. Wilkins. This ah Butch ah they told me to. So and then I come home and
get back and forth back and forth back and forth and some how they just disappeared
Steven Payne
That's too bad.
BUTCH 2
Yeah I had pictures going back to seven to the whole call. I was about 12, 12 or 13
Steven Payne
Wow.
BUTCH 2
But I did it this slick way you at on each train station there's a thing of
pipes that come off. And there was one set of pipes on 225th Street.
Steven Payne
Okay, okay
BUTCH 2
On the 2 train. And I would just come there like 6 in the morning?
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
By myself.
Steven Payne
Wow.
BUTCH 2
And just do a quick whole car and just cut out.
Steven Payne
So how long did it take to do a whole car?
BUTCH 2
A few hours?
Steven Payne
Okay.
BUTCH 2
But see thething about to 225th street you can see the train all the way up the
track so now I know the train's coming. I can get up and go on back downstairs.
Yeah. Wow.
Kurt Boone
And that was like those were like a lay-up like a lay-up versus the yard. So
like the yard you you kind of you like did a lot of work on lay-ups versus going
into trying to get
BUTCH 2
We did both.
Kurt Boone
You did both okay.
BUTCH 2
Lay-ups and yards? I said I had a favorite spot.
Kurt Boone
You have a favorite spot.
BUTCH 2
Yes.
Kurt Boone
Where was that Brooklyn Bronx Queens?
BUTCH 2
225th Street on 2 train.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
Or to 233rd somewhere up near the end. Okay, sure. Because you know, it's near
the end so not that many people are coming to go uptown.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
And the thing about the downtown side you covering the windows and everything.
They can't see you.
Kurt Boone
Oh, wow. That's smart. Yeah, because it gives you more time to paint.
BUTCH 2
Yeah, but a little trickery involved. But sometimes the best way is just the
00:40:00right way. Because sometimes you I might have had a good academic background
thinking, but sometimes now you try and out slick the police and, and out slick
the engineers and some of the yard crew and it doesn't always work.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
Kurt Boone
So you have to run. When they see you.
BUTCH 2
Yeah,
Steven Payne
yeah,
Kurt Boone
yeah. So you tell us about racking because there's a lot of stories about how
artists got they paint, people would do young artists would do different kinds
of things to get their paint. they get their paint.
BUTCH 2
Different kinds of things.
Kurt Boone
Things like not pay for it.
BUTCH 2
And actually, honestly, in the beginning, I was pretty much a scaredy cat. But
like I said, I was the brains. So I didn't have to steal nothing.
Steven Payne
Sure, sure. You just organized it.
BUTCH 2
Once they came with the paint, we figure out what we gonna to do.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
Kurt Boone
Okay.
BUTCH 2
But oh, I mean, eventually. Because you five of us would go in a store, and they
will come out, everybody come out with paint and I might have one can.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
But I think along the way, I developed a little more courage.
Steven Payne
Sure. Yeah.
BUTCH 2
And now, you know, because it got to a point where it didn't matter if they even
saw you or not because once I pick, pick this up. It's mine.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
I'm leaving with this.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
And um, yeah, after after a while. Like they got pretty good.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
And that's when I used to be by myself, because I could just go and get what I
need. Boom.
Steven Payne
Yeah. How many cans do you think it would take to do a whole car?
BUTCH 2
I would say 8, 10.
Steven Payne
Okay.
BUTCH 2
Something like that.
Steven Payne
Not a huge number then
BUTCH 2
Nah, not really. But it depends on because I got one guy who paints today.
Sometime in a production, one of the main attractions is the diversity of the
more colors you have.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
So he this OBI, so he may have 30 cans with him?
Steven Payne
Oh,
BUTCH 2
30.
Steven Payne
Were all different colors.
BUTCH 2
Yeah. But to see now you can take that beige and add a little bit of brown for
the shade. You know, a little bit more darker. Stuff like that. But see, you
bring 30 cans and you probably taking about 30 back which you.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
And I was just on some I'm taking when I need that's it.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
You know, maybe I'll find a Can or I can borrow some paint But
Steven Payne
yeah,
BUTCH 2
that was me. But it depends on what you doing. You know, like this today, guys
got cars.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
And they can have a trunkload of paint.
Steven Payne
Yeah. But lugging all that on the subway or walking.
BUTCH 2
It's different. Right it's Different.
Steven Payne
Yeah. And you're telling me earlier before we started this about the caps, so I
thought that was really interesting. Then, as opposed to now,
BUTCH 2
Yeah there was only two caps, two kinds of caps There was Jif Foam and Niagara.
Jif foam was I think some type of Toilet Bowl Cleaner or something. And Niagara
was spray starch.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
And like I said, we would have to go into the store and take actually, take the
cap off, take the cap off, take the cap off. And I said now you can go online
and order 100 caps, you can go to any one of these little graffiti stores. And
they give you a bag with 100 caps.
Steven Payne
Wow.
BUTCH 2
That's what I said. Wow. Wow.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
But I think that's why guys kind of give us a praise. Because it was a whole
different lifestyle. You know, you had to get in and get out. Like I said, Now
you guys, they're painting legal walls. You got permission. So you can sit out
there all day. go to lunch, come back, sign a couple of autographs. Talk to a
few girls. you couldn't do that.
Steven Payne
You were always looking over your left shoulder.
BUTCH 2
Yeah, you get in and get out.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
It's different.
Steven Payne
And did you ever use anything other than spray paint as far as paint goes?
BUTCH 2
No, I think guys have but I haven't.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
BUTCH 2
I've seen guys actually pull out a roller.
Steven Payne
That makes quick work of things.
BUTCH 2
I've seen it but like I said today, the mission is to just get the job done.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
You know, back then last year was taboo. Oh no. Yo, you use stencils. Oh my god.
No. Yeah. Now I've seen people pull out paint brushes and stuff.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
BUTCH 2
You know, for lines and different things and you know, using borders to get that
00:45:00tight line.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
Anything goes.
Steven Payne
yeah, yeah.
BUTCH 2
Then used to be they usually paint late at night.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
BUTCH 2
So you don't see you just come the next day and be like, Oh, shoot. Oh, yo this
is nice. They got paint brushes.
Steven Payne
Little did you know.
BUTCH 2
Right, exactly.
Steven Payne
Yeah. So you really had to know all the ins and outs of what spray paint can I
mean, I'm sure you got to know them very quickly.
BUTCH 2
Yeah.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
Sometimes cans get clogged.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
BUTCH 2
Sometimes we would we would paint in subzero weather they get they get clogged
and shit. That's a little frustrating.
Steven Payne
Oh, yeah, for sure.
BUTCH 2
Yeah, you come and. Right.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
You know, and swearing you be like, Oh, man. Now you got to change plans real quick.
Steven Payne
Yeah. Yeah.
BUTCH 2
Different stuff.
Steven Payne
Do you have a favorite production of yours from either from the early time or
maybe your entire time? Writing?
BUTCH 2
There was one I think, you know, the one I'm talking about when that they of Don
One filmed.
Kurt Boone
It's the one were you standing on the ditch, the track and you were painting?
Yeah yeah.
BUTCH 2
Yeah, I like that one. I like that one I didn't even know he filmed it like that.
Kurt Boone
Okay.
Steven Payne
Oh, wow.
BUTCH 2
But that you know, I think, um, because I had a fade I had a red orange and
yellow cloud, my shit was cascade with purple 3D. And, and I did that real
quick. Considering, you know, and, my boy, he was behind me taking pictures.
Steven Payne
Wow.
BUTCH 2
He wrote a book and then he, he died. God bless he's dead Don One Queens writer.
Yeah, yeah. He came out and they told me he was like, Yo, I want to paint with
Butch. I want to paint with Butch. And we never did a piece together. But we
hung out.
Steven Payne
Okay.
BUTCH 2
I think we did that mural at Prospect hospital. That was the beginning of like,
commission work.
Steven Payne
Oh, okay. Okay.
BUTCH 2
1976 It was Prospect hospital because Prospect Hospital is not even there anymore.
Steven Payne
Wow. And ya'll had a mural there.
BUTCH 2
They gave us a canvas. It was only supposed to be about four of us, but I think
it wanted to be in about eight or 10 of us.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
Same money. More bread to spread.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
You know. And, but we had fun that day. We had a little audience and everything.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
Kurt Boone
So that's the picture in your book the book. Oh the Daily News wrote an article
about that. So that the picture in Yoga the book. The Daily News wrote an
article about that yeah.
BUTCH 2
Yeah the news was there. And they had a few of they have they usually we needed
to have events like that they usually arrange for TV magazines and all that
There'd be cameras instead.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
Kurt Boone
So tell us a little bit about The Fantastic, The Fantastic Partners.
BUTCH 2
TFP? TFP is a my crew. It's not my crew, but a crew that I'm a member of
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
Goes way back. I think we started TFP, probably in about '72 or '73. Longtime of
OG Solid, But, me, Hash. Who am I forgetting Hash? VO 56 Those was like the core
members. still around. Everybody's still around. Except Solid. He God bless he's dead.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
He died in a train accident. And it's tight as me him was I don't know where I
was that day.
Steven Payne
Okay. Yeah.
BUTCH 2
Somebody has the article. I think it was 1974.
Steven Payne
Wow.
BUTCH 2
Yeah but The Fantastic Partners. It has it's grown. It's a Case 2. Yeah. It's
grown. It's you got guys in Centos' in Hawaii. Yeah, OB is from Australia. We
got guys all around. You know, the name is strong. My thing about TFP it's only
it's just one thing. It's one entity. You can't write OTB, BTR GG. Then 't write
TFP. No. If you notice most of the members it's all you write. Like if you was
writing Steve TFP. That's it.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
A that's that's like the main thing.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
A lot of guys that a different walks of life and stuff. Everybody's holding they
own. Everybody's healthy and stuff. We get together like that.
Kurt Boone
In your do ya'll paint sometimes together? or it's more like you're on any like
00:50:00any organized meeting thinking like that was just it's based on craft. So you're
good enough as an artist we'll guide you to put TFP on your name.
BUTCH 2
It's not only art. sometimes you have to be a well rounded pretty decent guy.
Steven Payne
Okay.
BUTCH 2
You know you know, because it's later on we are trying to groom a new generation
that might be more based on a skill set, you know, but I'm pretty well rounded
people. That's all.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
We didn't have nobody running around robbing people. Nothing like that.
Kurt Boone
Creative art, art. Nice. That's great. So, you know, what's, what's it like
today seeing the growth of Aerosol Art and seeing how it's being commissioned by
big companies and artists doing large scale works on 20 storey buildings What's
that like for you to see the art form grow into this kind of global phenomenon?
BUTCH 2
This is a rewarding. I know I was there when it all began, you know? It's a
global thing. Global my man. I bet if you walk in Montifiore, you probably see
some type of art. Soon as you get in there.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
Everywhere. You go into a rich man's house. He's gonna have a bust or some type
of thing art but see, we didn't create. We just added an art form.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
Kurt Boone
okay.
BUTCH 2
Art, music and art is life it's everywhere.
Steven Payne
For sure.
BUTCH 2
And it's always gonna be there music and art. You know like music you see rap
came along. and whatnot. Then it kind of fused with R&B then it fused with rock
& roll. You got some country rap?
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
You got to Dominican rap. So it but it's all music. It's just it's a new fusion.
Everybody is looking for a little spice. You know, sometime you you even eating
chicken all your life. Today, you might want to try something different. Let me
throw some curry powder in there.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
So it's all music and art. It's just an added form. That's all. Graff.
Kurt Boone
Graff.
BUTCH 2
You said some people don't like that word. I don't. You know what I'm talking about?
Steven Payne
Oh, yeah.
Kurt Boone
That's right.
BUTCH 2
But I'm scared. But I'm saying some people don't like the word graffiti.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
But if I say graffiti, you know what I'm talking about. So I'm trying to as a as
a communication. You have a sender and a receiver. You trying to get your
message across? Ah, I don't like that. Come on man.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
It's really silly.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
Aerosol, what difference does it make? I mean, OK grafitti. Represents vandalism
to a degree. But you get it where you fit in? If the shoe fits wear it. Do you
vandalize? Do you create?
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
You know, what I'm saying don't don't take it as an insult. Let it fly.
Kurt Boone
Let it fly. I mean, from your perspective, when you when you were doing whole
cars, you're thinking that you're, I don't know what you're thinking. But when
people talk about it, they talk about as a masterpiece.
BUTCH 2
Right, that's how it started.
Kurt Boone
Right? You're not talking about the vandalism? Because you're going in the yard?
That's it? I mean, obviously going into the yard. So the Mayor Koch would call
it vandalism, right? The police would call it vandalism but the artist himself
didn't call it that.
BUTCH 2
It depends on how you do it. Because you're going to cut a hole in states'
property. If you're going to leave a bunch of cans laying around, writing in
your name on the traffic light and shit. See if you noticed the guys who are
really artists.
Kurt Boone
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
They clean up behind them.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
They came behind themselves so that's part of that's part of it today.
Steven Payne
Sure.
BUTCH 2
You take all your shit with you. So you don't give the owner a reason not to
want you back.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
You fuck up then now you give him a reason. So you just cleaned up on yourself?
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
You know, that's how that goes. And you notice that even when they have old
timers doing all they just out there and drinking all day. Look to your side.
You know what you gonna see a garbage bag.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
They don't just go start busting bottles. Fighting. No, it's they did the motive
00:55:00is to clean up behind yourself. So it's not vandalism. But like I said, You go
in the yard you done cut a hole in the fence. You done left a bunch of paint
laying there. You done tag on the traffic signals and you done fucked up.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
You don't do that.
Kurt Boone
Right. Right. But still they would give it even though you would do a
masterpiece on the whole car. MTA would still wash it off. Right? They don't,
agree with how how it was done. You know how it's done?
BUTCH 2
You're supposedly defacing property.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
Kurt Boone
yeah.
BUTCH 2
But if you look at trains now look at all the advertisements.
Steven Payne
Oh, I know. Absolutely.
BUTCH 2
That's advertisement.
Steven Payne
Yeah. Absolutely.
Kurt Boone
Yeah. Okay. All right. So tell us tell us a little bit about what what, what
you're working on these days.
BUTCH 2
I got two canvases I'm playing with you know, you got some people waiting for
some new work. I'm setting I'm still putting my studio together. But yeah.
canvases, I want to go bigger. I'm doing one guy got like, 9 x 12s or whatever
two 8 x 10s. But I want to go bigger. Because matter of fact, I have a space.
Matter of fact, what I'm doing is decorating my own apartment. I'm trying
turning my apartment into like an art gallery.
Steven Payne
Yeah, yeah.
BUTCH 2
That's what I'm really doing all these spaces. But see, the thing is, you don't
paint the walls. You just get a big canvas where you can just hang it.
Steven Payne
Oh, sure. Yeah.
BUTCH 2
So that's what I'm doing some interior decorating was this was
Steven Payne
okay.
Kurt Boone
You also painted with Case 2, you guys were known as a fearsome art team. You
want to talk a little bit about Case 2 as well.
BUTCH 2
That's my partner Case. Before him I was painting alone. Like I said to 225th
Street on 2.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
BUTCH 2
I'm going up there to do my whole car. But then, how'd I meet Case. We were
still on the 6s. We're still hitting the 6 line. And we were at Soundview at
night. Doing our little shit.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
And I think he was an inside writer. He was going through the train with a magic marker
Steven Payne
Sure.
BUTCH 2
And he saw us out there painting so he stuck his head out. You know, like I told
you to do all the main statement back then was What do you right?
Steven Payne
Yeah.
Kurt Boone
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
And he said Case. I said Oh, I saw that before. And I asked him you know how to
paint. He said, Yeah, I said come on down. And I gave him a can and had him
fill-in the first can I think he ever had and then that started a whole nother
thing. He i He was with me every day.
Steven Payne
Wow.
BUTCH 2
Yeah. became my partner. So now it ain't just Butch you see it's Butch and Case,
Butch and Case Butch and Case? He was always there.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
And he was my boy, you know?
Kurt Boone
And yeah, he would paint with one arm right.
BUTCH 2
Two.
Kurt Boone
Oh, he had two.
BUTCH 2
I'm just kidding. Dude only had one arm. I'm just messing with you.
Steven Payne
Were there spots you all like, like to hang out at to see your work?
BUTCH 2
Oh, yeah. Everybody knows the Concourse.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
149th Street & Grand Concourse. Oh, yeah. Most guys came through there. Some
guys didn't. Because then after a while I think we had a reputation for being
rowdy and something.
Steven Payne
Oh, okay. Okay.
BUTCH 2
Or what's a better word? Not even rowdy. But kind of these guys like to start
they started taking stuff from people.
Steven Payne
Okay. Okay.
BUTCH 2
Because we we didn't have nothing to do. We would just go around the lay-up and
if we saw somebody painting.
Steven Payne
Sure.
BUTCH 2
We take they paint.
Steven Payne
Yeah, yeah.
BUTCH 2
So they we started having a bad reputation. And that's why a lot of people
didn't come to the Concourse. Cause we would be there a lot. Or if we in the
train, because you know if anybody rides the train when you coming uptown, into
the Grand Concourse.
Steven Payne
Yeah
BUTCH 2
the bench is right on the end. So I'm in the front. I'm looking. If they see you
a lot of people will leave.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
You know, um, I mean, yeah, we used to watch them. And then we watch trains on
the Tremont train station. Because it's a big turn. So as it's turning, you can
see this side and then when it comes in, you can see this side.
Steven Payne
Okay, yeah,
BUTCH 2
and if you saw something that you want you run a get the picture. That's when
01:00:00the Kodak used to have the 35 millimeter. And you would just then mail it out.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
That was then. But yeah, we'd do the Concourse and then we would do Tremont or 180th.
Steven Payne
Okay. Yeah.
BUTCH 2
Yeah. On the 6 Train We would be at a Hunts Point.
Steven Payne
Sure. Yeah.
Kurt Boone
So 149th and the Concourse. They called that the writer's bitch but there was
more than one Writer's bitch, but
BUTCH 2
that was the one that was
Kurt Boone
The was the main one. Yeah yeah, 149th and Grand Concourse.
BUTCH 2
I mean, everybody had their little spots.
Steven Payne
Yeah, for sure.
BUTCH 2
You got guys in Brooklyn everybody hang on Utica or something. We might hang 180th.
Kurt Boone
Okay,
BUTCH 2
you know,
Kurt Boone
right. Right. Right. So, I mean there're a lot of writers who became well known
for for doing whole cars and, and you knew quite a few of them.
BUTCH 2
I know them all dude.
Kurt Boone
Alright So let's talk. Some just by name. Give me Give me some reflection. So
Blade, for example, like,
BUTCH 2
I was down with that crew. The Crazy Five,
Kurt Boone
The Crazy Five. okay
BUTCH 2
I was coming down off Allerton. And one day, I might have been doing a piece or
just taking pictures of something. roaming the city. And I ran into those guys
at McDonald's on Allerton.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
BUTCH 2
like, Yo, you want to get down with us? And I was like, alright. There's Butch 2
The Crazy Five yeah. But there's about 50 of them. So I don't know how ya'll
come up with The Crazy Five you know. Because I spoke to the girl Porsche the
new girl is Porsche. And I said Porsche, you don't remember me? She said yeah
You're our 28th member. I was like damn ya'll chrona chrona chronologically
whatever. You know, Like that. But he came up a few times he saw me and we
talked. Lee
Kurt Boone
Lee put out, but he mentioned you in the movie WildStyle. He wanted to be like
Butch 2.
Steven Payne
okay, yeah,
Kurt Boone
so that's just goes a lot for your art.
BUTCH 2
But, yeah, but like I said, it's a it's a mix of a few things. I mean, you can
paint but you but than can you get paint you know, we had the keys to the to the
how the station is closed at night. We had the keys we had keys to the trains
you know, I had a crew that would fuck you up if you did the wrong thing it's
it's a it's a blend it's a mix man. You got guys that can paint their ass off
that don't leave the block.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
It's a Mix but that's how we lived. That's why That's why I told Cut I said yo
ask any writer from back then just say my name. And they'll tell you
Kurt Boone
There's a lot of stories
BUTCH 2
and they'll give you a story.
Kurt Boone
Crash had a story and Crash, you know.
BUTCH 2
Futura
Kurt Boone
Futura had a story.
BUTCH 2
Daze. Everybody he says Yeah, I remember you he said remember that shall we all
went to Esplanade this and that okay. But that that's what that's what it was
then. It was. It was Graff was a way of life.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
BUTCH 2
It was. And I'm proud of the guys that took it to Canvas.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
And pushed the art form. And you know, it's graff is mixing with street art and,
and and then it's become a commercial. But you know, let's let's get a piece of
that now. Because you got some of the original MCs and DJ s that still live in
the Bronx. While, you got some other guys that done bought houses in California.
Dr. Dre 90 million or something? But then you got guys that? Yeah.
Steven Payne
Still living in the 1520s.
BUTCH 2
Right. But yeah, I heard they had offered him a bunch of stuff. And he acted funny.
Steven Payne
Oh, okay. Okay.
BUTCH 2
I think they was trying to give him a star on the Walk of Fame or something. You
know, when he you know, I don't know.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
BUTCH 2
But yeah, that's the sad part man and how they did like, all the rappers and all
that they all they took that and left them high and dry.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
Wow.
Steven Payne
Yeah I know.
BUTCH 2
All of them Herc used to write to Bambata used to write?
Steven Payne
Yeah,
BUTCH 2
Off the record. But back then I told you before rap hip hop and all that. Do you
met somebody they're gonna say what do you write?
Steven Payne
Yeah, yeah. So writing was it was more of a deal in the Bronx.
BUTCH 2
that's the first element that's what they say in writing, everybody used to write.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
BUTCH 2
Everybody.
Kurt Boone
You was in the you and Case were featured in the movie. Yeah. Style Style Wars
01:05:00Style Wars. So that was a good scene man you wanna talk a little about that.
That scene and how
BUTCH 2
I think it was, I think there's another piece of that, that they didn't show was
there a piece of us walking down the train station platform.
Kurt Boone
I didn't see.
BUTCH 2
Okay. All right,
Kurt Boone
I saw when ya'll was in the apartment
BUTCH 2
Right. There was another part where we was walking down. We was in Esplanade
because I remember that day, because I had my daughter with me. And she's like
two years old. And I had her in the stroller and I had to put the stroller to
the side. And that's when I started telling these guys well what are ya'll
paying. Cause Y'all got us doing all this? At that scene I never saw again.
Kurt Boone
Okay,
BUTCH 2
But like I said, if you if you look at that I I do the coaching and and advising
off camera, because you see we in Style Wars Case is doing all the talking. ALl
the talking Oh yeah, he's a character. And I wasn't doing no talking.
Steven Payne
Yeah, yeah.
BUTCH 2
That's the mouthpiece he'll tell you. But God bless he's dead. That's my boy.
Kurt Boone
Yeah, yeah. And I saw the YouTube video interviewing you and Dondi and what was
what was that? Gallery?
BUTCH 2
Fashion Moda
Kurt Boone
Was a Fashion Moda.
BUTCH 2
I think it was Fashion Moda on Third Avenue.
Kurt Boone
Yeah we were interviewing both of you guys. And it was interesting Dondi went on
to become Rest in Peace Dondi Dondi but he became famous too. As a whole car artist.
BUTCH 2
He got one whole car that's like, famous immortal
Kurt Boone
in Cook got Right? Yeah.
BUTCH 2
Yeah.
Kurt Boone
But it's the whole the whole car era was when did the whole car era end? Like
when they when they like Koch likes got a lot. A lot of people to clean all the
trains and got a lot of police on it and.
BUTCH 2
I don't know, I think from what I think that think they started treating the car
with some chemical. Or something like that's where you're right? Because it
would seem funny. that all of a sudden, nobody's doing nothing. But once in a
while you will see something people will get, you know, beside they self and go
and try something. So you'll see it here and there. But as far as the whole
thing. I think most of these guys would probably still be doing it.
Steven Payne
Yeah. For sure. Do you remember the last one that you did?
BUTCH 2
Oh, on the train. Nah, I don't that they would just coming. They were just
coming. I was it was almost like you had to have you had to like to I said
Refresh or update. Every week. I had to have something you know. Come out.
Steven Payne
Yeah. Absolutely.
BUTCH 2
Because then you have Blade and them had shit. They would have shit coming out.
After a while it became a game of keeping up.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
You know, Lee and them started the whole car thing. So we had to do whole cars
Steven Payne
Yeah,
BUTCH 2
Blade never had shit coming out regular. So we had to have shit come out regular.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
BUTCH 2
It was it was a race. Everybody was doing it.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
Everybody was racing.
Kurt Boone
Yeah you'll race whole cars. But they had a whole draw draw era too if he were
just doing his throw-ups.
BUTCH 2
No, not everybody. I mean, you might have a simple Yeah, well, I guess that's a
Throw-up. Yeah.
Kurt Boone
A simple one.
BUTCH 2
But then you had guys that all they did was Throw-ups?
Kurt Boone
Yeah, yeah. So what's Can you explain to the Throw-up a little bit
BUTCH 2
Quick. Throw-up and pretty much explains itself? Or you can probably do two or
three cars with two cans.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
BUTCH 2
That's that's an attempt to get up to have your name just to more pieces. Like
you had the guy In IN.
Kurt Boone
Two letters.
BUTCH 2
He talking about? He got a million pieces.
Steven Payne
Easy to write I N a million times.
BUTCH 2
And he would do on one car 20 of them. You know now now your count is up. 20 Oh,
yeah, I got a million pieces.
Steven Payne
There's a guy in my neighborhood now who's like that?
BUTCH 2
A million pieces. With about with about ten cans? type of bullshit and then
sometime you can see they're not even thoroughly filled in. You might just
chhhhhsshhh You be like, Come on, man. That's it eeeeh. That don't even count.
Kurt Boone
Yeah what a story man I it must have been such a interesting period.
BUTCH 2
But I mean, if you're an artist, you can do a simple piece but then you may want
to add some 3D you may want to throw some designs in there. A little cloud, one
01:10:00thing leads to another now you want to cloud. Now, you know, so unless you only
have two cans, you're going to do a little more.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
And we didn't count pieces, Our thing our thing, was because we had Blade. We
had Billy. Bic 149. Butch. So our thing was B's the letter B?
Kurt Boone
Oh,
BUTCH 2
So, I was the king of Bs.
Kurt Boone
Yeah,
Steven Payne
for sure.
BUTCH 2
Yeah. Blade, Bic, Billy. I think we have Bloodshed. Butch. It was you know, king
of Bs you know, King of top-to-bottoms. King of the 2.
Steven Payne
Yeah
BUTCH 2
Everthing was a race just putting it out there.
Steven Payne
Yeah. Would you ever paint any of the lines that are exclusively in Manhattan?
BUTCH 2
I don't think there are any.
Steven Payne
No, not exclusively Manhattan but I ones that don't go to the Bronx.
BUTCH 2
I would, yeah. Like, like you got to G that takes you from Brooklyn across
Manhattan into Queens. The F train and shit like that. Um, I don't think I was
into that. I think those are more the BMT trains. The IRT's are the ones that we have.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
BMTs, are the ones that kind of shaped like that and their silver.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
But I'm nah I don't think I ever because a lot of guys used to go out to
Brooklyn to the lay-ups I didn't. we had lay-ups in our backyard. I'm not going
to Brooklyn. Got our paint stashed in the station when it's locked.
Kurt Boone
Okay.
BUTCH 2
You know, I'm taking my shit and then go two or three stops up and produce some
fresh and new.
Steven Payne
Absolutely
BUTCH 2
yeah
Kurt Boone
that's great.
Steven Payne
What about the was 3rd Ave mall was out already. That was already in the process
of being dismantled by the time you started or was that
BUTCH 2
Oh, yeah. I think it was gone it was gone but now. I was born right there 3809
3rd Avenue. Oh, the Claremont Parkway, but I think the 3rd Ave Ele was it was on
his way out then.
Steven Payne
Yeah, it was. Yeah.
BUTCH 2
Because not they got the buses and shit buses. It was more prevalent after that.
But I remember the 3rd Ave Ele they had the little wicker seats, and shit with
the fan Iremember that.
Kurt Boone
So I met you at Mobile Messenger Service. So how do you become a Bike messanger?
How'd you get into it?
BUTCH 2
Ah I don't know I guess it's quick and easy. And it was it was it was a big
business too.
Steven Payne
Sure.
BUTCH 2
Big business guys gotta get a bike.
Steven Payne
Do you know to ride a bike already?
BUTCH 2
Yeah get you a bike get you a bag. And I think a Mobile I mean, not Mobile.
Who'd I start with it was called Wing Foot. Wing Foot was on 38th and 6th, they
became Dynamics
Kurt Boone
Oh they became Dynamics. Oh, Dynamics is big.
BUTCH 2
Yeah, I know, they I think they've been there was a lot of companies merged.
Kurt Boone
That's right.
BUTCH 2
Yeah, but I was. I was Wing Foot. And we was rockin for a while. But I was
telling them too do Oh, we were getting remember they came out with biking cops.
Police on bikes. I don't know if you remember that. You must have been out of
the game. But this is the 90s They had police on bikes. For us.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
Kurt Boone
Yeah,
BUTCH 2
But um, you going the wrong way? Sidewalk red light. Your third red light ticket
is $750
Steven Payne
Oh,
Kurt Boone
whoa that's some serious money.
BUTCH 2
Yeah. I had 14 tickets that have never paid for it. And they still sitting
there. Um, but they need those biking cops Now. You see all these motorized
scooters? Electric bikes. I was telling them. and I laughed I said. I think
everybody goes to at least one harrowing experience a day with the e-bike
Steven Payne
Oh, yeah,
BUTCH 2
everybody. Yeah, yeah. All, on the sidewalk you be like yo!
Kurt Boone
What you doin? What you doing man don't you know how to ride.
BUTCH 2
Yeah, um, but yeah, then I left I was in Texas for about, I can say 8 years I
was down there. And I came back. I think, actually, to be honest, I think I got
blackballed because I was working at Darden restaurant called Yard House. Yeah,
01:15:00they have I think they have Yard House in Houston.
Steven Payne
Yeah. Yeah.
BUTCH 2
Oh, I think the big thing I was looking for Houston was Jimmy Chang, who was a
Chinese restaurant. Yeah. As I said, I was in Texas. I said, I want some wings
and rice badly.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
And the girl took me to Jimmy. Jimmy Changs.
Steven Payne
Yeah, I think
BUTCH 2
It's a Chinese restaurant in Houston.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
Because you know, it's you can get a burrito on every corner. That's what's down
there burrito. Yo, they got some down there where they mix corn and mayonaise's
never seen it.
Steven Payne
Oh, yeah. Elote or somehting like that.
BUTCH 2
I don't know what it's called. But it's I'm like corn and mayonaise. And it's
like a delicacy.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
Wow.
Steven Payne
Yeah they spread it on the corn and
BUTCH 2
whoa,
Steven Payne
a little cayenne pepper or something on it?
BUTCH 2
Yeah, something like that. But um, I left. Oh, my mom's had passed in 2017. And
she had a co op over here in Co-op City and I was supposed to come back for the
Co Op, and I didn't put in. I put in a two week notice at Yard House. But I
think I left in a week. Only reason why was because I was trying to get out of
the landlord's apartment before the first before we went into the month because
he gonna try to prorate or whatever all even eight days. That's a couple of
done. So that's a you know, let me get out of here on the first. And I don't
think Yard House like the way I exited because it was one girl Emily was going
back to California. And she had visited a Yard House in California talked and
everything and they arranged to transfer so I'm watching her and say Oh, well
cool, because I'm going to New York. I came went to the Yard Houses there's a
Yard House in Yonkers somewhere. And I talked to them and everything. Yeah okay
as soon as we talk to your manager. You don't worried about it. We get you in
your garden. But I never got in. Never got it. And I know. Then I went to Olive
Garden. They he said oh yeah sure whatever? Never got in?
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
You know, then Yard House just opened up in Time Square.
Steven Payne
Oh,
BUTCH 2
I said let me go there. They said they came up with something. But I said that
that manager that I left? I think she really did something. Because I was there
for eight years.
Steven Payne
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
BUTCH 2
So that's when I went back to Mobile. I said, let me let me go back to these
guys. And they took me back.
Kurt Boone
What was Texas like? You liked it down there or was it?
BUTCH 2
It was alright. I had fun. I had me a brand new car apartment and all that you
know, two three air conditioners in my apartment. Yeah, only thing about them.
The bus stop. doesn't have like we have I know. It's just a bench in the middle
of the grass. And it'd be 100 degrees
Steven Payne
And you might wait there. 30 minutes or something cause the buses don't come
very often.
BUTCH 2
In New York. Three days over 90 is a heatwave. In Texas, it was like 40 days
over 100. I'm like yo this shit is crazy. And everybody walking around, don't
let it don't let the temperature drop in Texas. If it's 40 or 50 degrees.
They're panicking. I'm like what? Yeah, this feels good. I think one time before
I left, they saw snow. It might have been a little flurry.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
BUTCH 2
They went bananas. I'm like, yo, this is crazy. But uh, yeah, Texas good. I had
fun. Well you know a bunch of girlfriends and all that.
Kurt Boone
So you was near Houston?
BUTCH 2
No I was in San Antonio. Houston is two hours.
Kurt Boone
Oh Houston is 2 hours.
BUTCH 2
Down I-10
Kurt Boone
All right,
BUTCH 2
And then after you got Beaumont, Katy and all that shit.
Kurt Boone
Did you paint down there?
BUTCH 2
Yeah, yeah, they had a they had a spot called the Paint Yard. It's one of those
Graff stores. So they sold paint. You go in the back. They had a wall. I had
some pictures that. I don't know what happened to them. Me. I had this little
kid I call him a weasel but um DAP DAP. And then of WizArt, I don't know if you
WizArt He has he's a guy with his characters. He's a bad dude.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
And we collaborate on something. We had fun that day. And then I think I drove
up to Dallas. And they had this wall up there. I did a piece in Dallas. San
Antonio, we supposed to go Houston has the Meeting of Styles. That's what it's
called in Houston. San Antonio is called Clogged Caps it's a few. It's a few
01:20:00conventions. They be having Clogged Caps was nice. I told you them Mexican dudes
was amazing.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
And then they was playing James Brown and I was ike oh shit they have hip hop.
Yeah. Everybody had the little coolers. It was a it was like a factory area. And
they was rocking rocking Clogged Caps. I think I had the book or something. It
was a What year was that? It had to be 2015 or something.
Kurt Boone
2015 alright man, Texas super fun man.
BUTCH 2
Yeah, they just getting up on Graff. And then you know, they got the all what is
that? Like, Aztec Indian motif thing? They do a lot of that. And then they got
they got a couple of some. They gave me some shirts some complimentary shit. Oh,
The School of Fine Arts. This is for you this that that that. Yeah. Then Karen
came down there.
Kurt Boone
Right.
BUTCH 2
And see the thing was, she wanted to take a picture of me pieceing, but I had
already did a piece. So we went inside, bought a Can of paint. And I'm tagging
my name. And she's taking a picture of it. But see the thing is the guy that
runs the walls. Any wall you're not really supposed to tag because that's gonna
get people thinking that they can just tag,
Steven Payne
yeah,
BUTCH 2
So what he did he didn't say anything like yo Butch you weren't supposed to that
what they did. They went over my shit the next day. You know, TK was down there too,
Kurt Boone
okay, okay,
BUTCH 2
but yeah, that that kind of diffused the whole friendship. I'm like, You fuck me
on the Yeah. And then I think I recently spoke to the guy Oh, yo Butch you know
I feel bad about that this and that man. I'm like yo but it wasn't nothing.
Because it was they paint anyway.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
But that's the only thing about today. Today's artists is buying paint. And I
find that hard to do.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
I find it hard to do.
Steven Payne
Yeah, for sure.
BUTCH 2
And I know guys that are like my boy from Australia. He'll go and buy 10-15 cans
but you see the thing about that. It's not like it used to be like yo, let me
get some of that red His paint it's his paint.
Steven Payne
He doesn't share it huh
BUTCH 2
no.
Steven Payne
Oh yeah.
BUTCH 2
Which I can dig though. You buying paint but then everybody's trying to do cost
effective shit they got cans for $5 $6 and shit like that. I think I had bought
four cans and I was like hyperventilating. I'm like oh my God. I want paint.
Kurt Boone
so now you have to paint it's locked up in cages. How do you feel about that?
BUTCH 2
We it's because of us, we used to empty shit out. let me tell you something you
see this bookshelf?
Kurt Boone
Yeah,
BUTCH 2
If that was all paint we would probably come in with a dolly and try to take the
whole job no try to wheel the whole thing out. because we got guys to go in the
back and act like they gonna steal something or they need help excuse me sir.
And get him out of here you know and then we wheeling the fucking whole rack
out. Yeah, we went big we wouldn't big. We had one guy used to go in the store
with a big suitcase.
Kurt Boone
Yeah.
Steven Payne
Were there were there some of the stores that you're like to hit up the most you
have to move around a lot?
BUTCH 2
Oh, we moved around a lot. Because I mean, if you burned a store, we would go
back there. Remember? I don't know your guys. Martin Paints Martin's then We had
a what was the store in Queens. Was it Genovese Drugs was in Queens. Martin's
Paint. And then those were like the two main
Steven Payne
Okay, yeah, those are the two
BUTCH 2
Martin's and Genovese Drugs.
Steven Payne
I see. So you're going out to Genovese. And you're gonna have to get all that
paint back up to the Bronx.
BUTCH 2
Yeah. I mean, yeah, you you're exhilarated now. I'll be juggling them shits we
had been out to Long Island and shit. We found stores that had backdoors.
Steven Payne
Okay, yeah.
BUTCH 2
We had stores where you would have to really wait 10 or 15 minutes just to get
help. Excuse me and ladies, just keep walking.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
BUTCH 2
We'd be like, Oh, shit.
Steven Payne
Yeah. Yeah.
BUTCH 2
Oh, and then we just come in two or three trips?
Steven Payne
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
BUTCH 2
But that was that might have been the 80s. It might have been not even the 80s
it might have been just '70s. Because I think the 80s is when fucking angel-dust
01:25:00came out and all kind of shit. Yeah, drugs. That's sad. That sums it up. Shit
shit start happening Everybody want to try something? You know? Which wasn't
good. But yeah, it changed the game it really did.
Steven Payne
and had a big impact on the Graff community.
BUTCH 2
Somewhat. No, because in the beginning we would go to lay-up with sandwiches.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
BUTCH 2
Beer.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
BUTCH 2
A couple of joints, you know, but that's all you needed. You can buy a tre-bag
and get five six joints.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
BUTCH 2
You know, so we will go we started the little parties you know get in there and
puff of joint you know, okay, Yo do the outline. And you know, that thing was
the hardened drug you know, that's that's like the trap smoke. You smoke weed.
You get a little feeling now let me take a puff of that.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
What is that? She gave me a puff. Curiosity killed the cat. Yeah, um It depends
on the individual because I know some guys that can get hi and just want to sit
down and, and space out on a piece of paper.
Steven Payne
Absolutely. Yeah.
Kurt Boone
So by the time you would say, 24 was the train era over? So cuz you started at
around 12 and It was a certain period that
BUTCH 2
24 I think I was 1984. I was about school. I was in Bronx Community College. I
left there in '85. And that's when fucking crack hit.
Kurt Boone
Oh, right. crack crack
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
What is that shit?
Steven Payne
Yeah.
Kurt Boone
I never tried crack. So in '84 you were still doing whole cars in '84. But they
still artists out there.
BUTCH 2
I don't know. I think I was at that time. I was I was just shirt and tie with
the bookbag and shit. Well, let me let me say leather attache the shirt and tie.
You know, I think I had a brand new car. And all that I had two three four
girlfriends and stuff.
Kurt Boone
So you wasn't hittin the trains that much.
BUTCH 2
Nah, not really. But again, there's always somebody who kind of nudges me back
in. Come on man. Come on. Come on. Come on. Come on. this and that. I think I
might have Case is usually the one. Come on. Come on. Come on. Come on. Yeah.
But then I think at that time, rap rap rap is was getting bigger.
Steven Payne
Okay, that time
BUTCH 2
Rap was getting bigger. And you know, we was going to different parties and
stuff and like Flash and all them?
Steven Payne
Sure.
BUTCH 2
They would have the amphitheater, somewhere down by the Lower East Side I Think.
Pastor Crespo
Yeah. They just tore it down.
BUTCH 2
Yeah, we just had on Wildstyle 35th and isn't there , because there isn't that
project like Cherry Street or some shit.
Pastor Crespo
That's the Vladecks Houses on Jackson.
BUTCH 2
Behing the courts. Yeah, yeah. They just had something big over there. I didn't
know they tore it down. I never found it. I was I'm walking up and down thing.
They said, Well, you have to know where its at. because you don't hear it. You
would have to know. And I was walking never found it.
Pastor Crespo
Right across from Jackson Park a Little bridge.
BUTCH 2
Yeah. They said it was a bridge. They just had something big over there.
Kurt Boone
Yeah. So hip hop. I mean, obviously Hip Hop is is pioneered in the Bronx. So you
was around, you know, Grandmaster Flash and a lot of these artists, you know. Do
you remember hanging with Grand Master Flash at all?
BUTCH 2
Nah, I've been around those guys, but I think I was closer to the Soul Sonic guys.
Steven Payne
Okay.
BUTCH 2
Oh, daily. Bronx River. Yeah. But then at this time. People were getting like,
big headed egos were swollen. I don't know.
Kurt Boone
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
I just know there was a lot of egos. and shit, so and I'm not starstruck.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
So if you don't want to extend yourself didn't then heck with you.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
Kurt Boone
But I think the two movies came out in early 80s Style Wars and Wildstyle. I
think it was 82
Steven Payne
Yeah, something like that.
Kurt Boone
'82 '83s so you was like a movie star in 82 83?
01:30:00
BUTCH 2
Yeah I had been in newspapers, magazines, movies, all of that.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
Kurt Boone
Books.
BUTCH 2
But what's fame without fortune, give me the money. And just give me a, put my
name in the credits and let me go ahead on down now. But that's what it is. Now,
a lot of guys, it's is more of you know, contracts and stuff. Everything is a
disclosure, stuff like that. Cause he knew when Karen came down and did the
interview for the Case 2 documentary
Kurt Boone
Yes,
BUTCH 2
She had me sign papers. Yeah. I'm like, you know, it's better it's better to
kind of just talk then really interview?
Kurt Boone
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
It's better to just talk You'll get way more in the different better way.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
But she came down and we had fun. We had dinner and stuff like that. Oh. We just
they buried somebody well they didn't bury they cremated a guy. one of TFPs
wives? Yeah. She was in fire a couple of weeks ago. And we had to. We had the
memorial um Saturday. Yeah. Rest in Peace Sherry. Then the son is past as well
of smoke inhalation.
Steven Payne
The Big fire in the Bronx.
BUTCH 2
Not that one.
Steven Payne
Not that one a different one.
BUTCH 2
Yeah, but I used to live in that building. Oh, really? On the 15th floor.
Steven Payne
That's crazy.
BUTCH 2
333 East 781st, but that's right before and I was having problems with
management. And that's when I left and went to Texas. Okay,
Steven Payne
I see.
BUTCH 2
That was like '08 '07 or '08. Something like that. Yeah. But
Kurt Boone
yes, so that was yeah,
BUTCH 2
there was another big fire on Webb.
Steven Payne
Oh,
Kurt Boone
I don't know if you heard that. But it was only one apartment that burnt and
that was by his apartment. His wife got burnt and his son he had smoke inhalation.
Steven Payne
That's terrible.
BUTCH 2
It is.
Steven Payne
Were there many fires in any of the places you lived? Growing up very much.
BUTCH 2
I was in the Bronx Bronx was burnt down period Our hang out would be an
abandoned building a burned down building.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
And then you know, they got pictures of some Hip Hop pictures where you just see
bricks stacked up that's what that's what it was.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
BUTCH 2
That was that was it? You know, swinging on a monkey bar and uh, you know Yeah,
that that was the Bronx in the 80s
Kurt Boone
Abandoned cars burnt out cars
BUTCH 2
But see this now is is is entirely different.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
BUTCH 2
It's entire they rebuilt it you know, they got a lot of malls and you know, they
trying to offer us everything. I don't know if we appreciate it, you know,
because you got your restaurants you got Popeyes you got White Castle you got
Chinese? Yeah, you got all the trying to offer us everything. I don't know if
it's just after our money or whatever, but it's just should be decent. But it
should be decent.
Kurt Boone
We ask every artist after the interview to tag to do a tag for us for the
Library Archives. But yeah, that's one of my books, that's all so I just use
this tablet. I'm gonna tear it out. And then it's going to go into library
archives while we're here. So that's Futura right there. I don't know who that
is some of them are your friends so
BUTCH 2
this look like
Kurt Boone
That's the draw
BUTCH 2
Oh that's what that was
Kurt Boone
You did that at the Bronx Museum
BUTCH 2
The Bronx Museum. The one on the Concourse.
Kurt Boone
The Grand Concourse yeah.
BUTCH 2
When was that?
Kurt Boone
That was ah
BUTCH 2
They had bean a big show there
Kurt Boone
Right around that show when they did the whole
BUTCH 2
that was February of last year or sometime. I know it was.
Kurt Boone
It was before the Covid
Steven Payne
Right before Covid
Kurt Boone
right before Covid so Futura did a like a three hour Black Book signing like he
he anybody could come it was free bring your black-book and he would sign it it
was really really nice.
BUTCH 2
But that you can does it say Futura because of you sign in a black or I guess it
was just getting his art out. But to get your name out I would expect to be able
to something legible also Futura, but you know if you're going to sign 100 books
Kurt Boone
yeah but you went to that exhibit, right? The Bronx
01:35:00
BUTCH 2
Yeah. It was I think that was the best event the Bronx had had in a long time.
Kurt Boone
Oh, right. Right. So down down in down in Miami. I was mentioning to you they
have you on Graffiti in Miami, they have your name as the one of the pioneers
had his own style. Right. I believe they have pictures of the Don 1, the Don 1,
car that you get who photographed it,
BUTCH 2
right,
Kurt Boone
They hanging on hanging on the wall. So how's does that feel to be in the
museum? Where where they telling the story of how this art form began? and they
going? Have to go by your name. Right? to kind of understand how this whole
global movement started.
BUTCH 2
Yeah, not surpriing that said I was there. It's not surprising. I mean, you
know, if you have a, they came up with a list of the 50 best writers in New York
City ever had. I think I'm number 13 or somthing. But it makes me laugh. That's
why I told you that's what we was living man.
Kurt Boone
Right. And you didn't count how many trains You did. So that's, that's
interesting too.
BUTCH 2
Nah, I didn't count. I know I wasn't on that. I don't think I was on that I got
new shit.
Steven Payne
Your production right?
BUTCH 2
Like they said a day a a time, a piece at a time?
Steven Payne
Yeah. Yeah.
BUTCH 2
I wasn't trying to like be the king. Oh, you know, like, like, in with a million
pieces. Like I said, I'm king of Bs. King of top to bottoms. Shit like that?
Yeah. Kurt do you have any other?
Kurt Boone
Yeah, I think I'm pretty good. I mean I think I'm good.
Steven Payne
I got a final question. Then Pastor if you have some questions, you're more than welcome.
Pastor Crespo
I'm just on the observation side.
Steven Payne
So here's a final question for you. This this is more about just the Bronx in
general. What does the Bronx represent to?
BUTCH 2
Home basically?
Steven Payne
Yeah,
BUTCH 2
Bronx is home. I was born in Jacobi hospital on March 31, 1960. Oh, I done been
through the Claremont. We moved to Washington Avenue.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
From there we moved to Lambert. That was a no Longfellow Longfellow. Yeah. That
Hunts Point. And then from there, we moved to a Lambert. I think I was in
Lambert for 20 years. Yeah. Then ah I moved out we had a girlfreid we got a
place and then my mom's went to Co Op. She was up there about 25 years.
Steven Payne
Wow.
BUTCH 2
Yeah. I came up there to get the Co Op, but it's a whole legal system. Like I
was saying about signing stuff. My name wasn't on anything. So I mean, you have
the option to add people to your what do they call it the affidavit
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
And I wasn't on there. So that that created a whole nother thing. But yeah I
love the Bronx and Bronx has its good moments and good times. And it is places
in the Bronx that are beautiful. Listen, I was at all This is. And I don't know
if you guys know where Aldi's is at on Gun Hill.
Steven Payne
I used to go there all the time.
BUTCH 2
Behind there it's beautiful. You wouldn't even know it's back there.
Steven Payne
Back there. With the big Hill. What road is that?
BUTCH 2
I don't know the name of the street. But it's where Aldi's is back behind?
Steven Payne
I know what you're talkng about
BUTCH 2
Yeah, behind there over. It's Immaculate
Steven Payne
it is
BUTCH 2
I said Wow. Like a hidden jewel.
Steven Payne
I know. Absolutely.
BUTCH 2
I love the Bronx. I like the Bronx. Bronx is home,
Steven Payne
yeah. Do you think living in and growing up in the Bronx Do you think that had?
Like a specific impact on your style? As far as your your writing goes?
BUTCH 2
Nah, not really.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
Just because, like you, you draw he like you go into a zone.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
And in that way, wherever you are,
Steven Payne
you go into that zone.
BUTCH 2
Right. It don't matter where you at. You know, that's why a lot of times you
draw because you can just kind of block all that out.
Steven Payne
Yeah. And you were telling me earlier that you think art might have been a way
for you like a way of escape? Or something do you want to talk about that.
BUTCH 2
Well, art, music and art. I think music and art is everybody's escape cause
everybody has a favorite song
Steven Payne
for sure.
01:40:00
BUTCH 2
Everybody does some type of doodling?
Steven Payne
Yeah.
BUTCH 2
It's an escape and then color? You know. And the thing about today is you don't
have to be a expert at anything what you your work is your work, you know
anything's allowed. That's why it's so easy to draw whatever you do. You got
kids that are five years old and drawing.
Steven Payne
absolutely
BUTCH 2
Art is life man. That's all I say,
Steven Payne
yeah, absolutely. Well, I think that's a good place to wrap up. And like we want
to share anything else. Anything we're going to talk to talk about, that you
want to talk about, or maybe any advice for artists today or anything like that.
BUTCH 2
The only advice I can give to artists is just to be yourself. If you're coming
back, if you're making a comeback. Come back with what you're known for. Don't
try to keep up with the Joneses. Set your own bar, do what you do, or do what
you're known for. You know, this guy will be his wild style, and he can do this.
Let him do it. That's him. Yeah. You're known for what you do. Just stick to
your stick to your guns, man. Yeah, that's it.
Steven Payne
Absolutely. Well, thank you so much. Butch it's been such a pleasure hearing
about your life, your art, your artistic vision, everything. Really, really
appreciated and really honored to have you as a first participant in this.
BUTCH 2
Alright. Thank you.
Kurt Boone
Thank you. So
