00:00:00Steven Payne
Welcome to the Bronx Aerosol Arts Documentary Project. My name is Steven Payne,
librarian and archivist at the Bronx County Historical Society. Today is
February 23 2022. And, Kurt, Before we introduce our main event here, you want
to go ahead and introduce yourself?
Kurt Boone
Yeah. I'm Kurt Boone and I've been writing about urban culture for 40 years.
Steven Payne
Alright, great. Thank you, Kurt. So we're here with Staff 161 really a true
pioneer in the graffiti arts movement, there from pretty much the the get go
when before many people at all had started writing on subway trains. And Staff
is also the founder of the Ebony Dukes Graffiti Club, really the first crew and
graffiti crew in the Bronx. And really excited to hear about this early history
from from Staff today. And Staff, we begin these oral histories by asking people
to talk a little bit about their family's history and background if they know
00:01:00it, and some of your earliest life experiences.
STAFF 161
Okay, so hello. So my name is Edward. Edward is my given birth name from my
mother, and father, and I was born in 1956. In Metropolitan Hospital here in New
York City. So I was basically born and raised in the city. My first residence,
my own my parents first residence, and basically, where they you know brought me
when I was born, was in Harlem, 117 Street in Madison Avenue, where they were
living my mother and father were living together there. And so I was the first
00:02:00firstborn of nine children that, you know, my mother eventually had. So there,
is where I got my start in the city. Eventually, I was moved from my mother's
home, right. Through a court action, family court action after my parents'
marriage, you know, dissolved. I wouldn't say dissolved, but they separated.
Steven Payne
Sure.
STAFF 161
My mother and father and my mother came to the attention of the family court
with her children. I had another brother born after me by that point, my
brother, Adam, and I had two twin brothers. After that, David and Daniel. So at
that point, is where my mother and father had separated.
00:03:00
Steven Payne
Sure.
STAFF 161
And my mother came to the attention of the family court here in New York City.
And eventually, her children, which was my three younger brothers were removed
from her along with myself from her and placed in foster care, which were all of
us had foster care homes in Staten Island.
Steven Payne
Okay.
STAFF 161
At that time, right.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
And we remained in foster care, at least me and my next youngest brother after
me. Adam, we remained in foster care for the duration of five years before we
returned to my mother's care or custody.
Steven Payne
Sure,
STAFF 161
Which she she was living in the Fort Apache section of the South Bronx
Steven Payne
Okay she moved up there. Within those five years.
STAFF 161
Yes.
00:04:00
Steven Payne
Okay.
STAFF 161
That was when I returned to her. That's where we went to the Fort Apache section
of the South Bronx.
Steven Payne
Sure, sure. And do you know much about how your mother and father ended up in
New York and, you know, before they had children or anything like that,
STAFF 161
okay, so my mother has a Caribbean background. She was born in, in, in the
Virgin Islands, St. Thomas in the Virgin Islands. And she came here with her
mother which my grandmother, my maternal grandmother, with her siblings, my
mother had five or six younger siblings at that point, right. Now, some of her
siblings were born here, but my mother and at least three of her youngest
siblings were born in the Virgin Islands like her. So my maternal grandmother
00:05:00came here. In I would say, the, the early 50s.
Steven Payne
Okay,
STAFF 161
Early 50s or with her, my mother and the rest of her, her children in the early
50s from the Virgin Islands.
Steven Payne
Sure.
STAFF 161
And basically they are residing in Harlem.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Now um after, My mother was like, she got here when she was 16. But after she
was like, 19 years old, I believe she met my father.
Steven Payne
Okay.
STAFF 161
In Harlem.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Now my father is originally from South Carolina.
Steven Payne
Okay. Sure. Yeah.
STAFF 161
Alright. And they, you know, got together and eventually were married. And
00:06:00somewhere during that time, or, or just before, I'm not sure, when my
grandmother deceased, but my mother took up the care of her siblings.
Steven Payne
Sure. Yeah.
STAFF 161
And, and along with her marriage, and the resulting children that she had from
my father,
Steven Payne
She had her hands full, huh?
STAFF 161
That's what the conflict came in. And the family court came in and then saud,
you know, Miss, you can't have your siblings. Right. Plus your four children.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
And at that point that had created a rift between my mother and father.
00:07:00
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
And my father basic basically exited this situation.
Steven Payne
Sure.
STAFF 161
So here's my mother, with her four children, plus her siblings trying to juggle
this, this family situation which didn't work out, of course. And so um four of
our children went into foster care, including myself, and as well as two of her
younger sisters.
Steven Payne
Yeah, yeah. Wow. And what was Staten Island like when you were there for you
said five years?
STAFF 161
Oh, yeah. Now you got to understand now this is now the early 60s When I say the
early 60s, right. I'm about 62, 63. At least. Well, even earlier than that,
because I was born in 56. So by the late 50s, the court action, had probably
00:08:00came in like maybe in 59.
Steven Payne
Okay.
STAFF 161
60s right.
Kurt Boone
You were about 4 years old.
STAFF 161
Yeah, I went into foster care when I was five years old. And I left when I was,
like, 10, I returned return to my mother when I was 10, 10 years old. And that
time she was living in the South Bronx. But ah, yeah, Staten Island. Staten
Island was, you gotta understand the times, in the early 60s, the height of the
Civil Rights Movement,
Steven Payne
yeah.
STAFF 161
And other movements that were happening.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
So Staten Island was like less than one 1% non-white?
Steven Payne
Yeah, very little.
STAFF 161
less than 1%. Non-white, and even today Staten Island remains like a very
conservative type of environment. But it was it was a little more dramatic. At
that point.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
So so like to two young black kids, right. I'm staying with one of the very few
00:09:00non-white families on Staten Island was, was a little dramatic,
Steven Payne
I'm sure. Yeah,
STAFF 161
It was a it was a nice, middle class type of environ, working class, middle type
of environment.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
But the fact that we're in the middle of the civil rights movement in this
environment where there's like, a population of less than 1% non-whites, who I
was a part of, it was pretty dramatic experience to me,
Steven Payne
I'm sure. Yeah,
STAFF 161
but, soon after I say like 1965 I was returned to my mother in the South Bronx.
And basically it was a whole new experience for me at that point from coming
00:10:00from Staten Island, Staten Island, basically a middle class working class type
of environment and in a residential home house sure to this tenement environment
in, in the South Bronx. That was basically a dramatic change.
Steven Payne
Which street did she live on when you when you moved up there?
STAFF 161
This was a place in the South Bronx between Westchester Avenue, and Longwood Avenue.
Steven Payne
Okay, sure,
STAFF 161
uh, by the name of Hewitt Place at H E W I T T,
Steven Payne
yeah,
STAFF 161
Place, and a section of 161st Street intersected Hewitt Place. And so that was
00:11:00basically in the heart of a section of the South Bronx that we referred to as
Fort Apache. And the reason that we referred it was referred to as Fort Apache
was because the station after where was closest to my or the station that was
closest to where we were living at was Prospect Avenue where the 2 and number
the 5 IRT trains stopped at.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Where we live that Prospect Avenue, and the following station, going uptown
would be Intervale Avenue.
Steven Payne
Sure.
STAFF 161
And the station right after that would be Simpson. Right off of, Simpson Street,
there was the 41st precinct.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
And the 41st precinct was the jurisdiction in that general area. And the 41
00:12:00precinct was dubbed or renamed. The Fort Apache.
Steven Payne
Sure.
STAFF 161
So
Kurt Boone
Did that slang term come from the streets? I did the movie. People come up with
that name.
STAFF 161
Okay, so you mentioned the movie. So eventually a movie with Paul New starring
Paul Newman was, was made about that area Fort Apache, South Bronx. I believe,
you know, the police. The police labeled it Fort Apache. Right. And, and I, and
that was because of the perspective that I guess they had, that they had a fort
that was built in the midst of a very hostile environment. Right. Yeah. For
00:13:00them. Yeah. Yeah. So it's it Yeah. So it became the normal label for for for
that, that area, the South Bronx Fort Apache.
Kurt Boone
So when you were in elementary school, did you start drawing then? Or did you
play sports like basketball? Baseball? football.
STAFF 161
Yeah. Okay. So here's the thing, the environment. Right, was dramatically different.
Steven Payne
Sure.
STAFF 161
Coming from this Staten Island area where I was in foster care.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
The South Bronx was was generally a slum. It was very rundown, a lot of
abandoned and, empty areas of it, when I say bad and empty buildings were tore
00:14:00down and rundown, and some of them were demolished. Due to high occurrences of fires,
Steven Payne
sure.
STAFF 161
A lot of fires in the area. And, and as a result of the fires, some of the
buildings were demolished and had these large, empty lots for blocks and blocks.
You know, so it gave this appearance that it was like a war zone. And there was
like, almost like heavy shelling in the area. And and, and, you know,
destruction that follows of course, after shelling, just look gave that appearance.
Steven Payne
Yeah, yeah.
STAFF 161
Yes.
Steven Payne
What was your, the building that you lived in, like as far as the state of it?
STAFF 161
Okay, so I was on the Westchester Street, which was the main street that ran
00:15:00through the neighborhood. I was on the Westchester end of Hewitt Place.
Steven Payne
Okay. Okay. Yeah.
STAFF 161
And my building was 858. Right next to the last building on that side of Hewitt
Place, which was 862.
Steven Payne
Okay,
STAFF 161
so 862 and 858. Right. And then there was a following row of tenement buildings
on on the street. But 862 was the last residential building on that end of
Hewitt Place.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Before you got to Westchester Avenue, and then you had a few commercial
establishments that led into Westchester Avenue.
Steven Payne
Sure. Sure.
Kurt Boone
So so. So why you was this young kid, you know, and you see photos of the kids
00:16:00playing in empty, lots and doing all kind of like acrobatic stuff or couches,
you do a lot of different creative games. with what they have?
STAFF 161
Yeah,
Kurt Boone
So what was your experience? What kind of games did you like Butch Two talked
about playing football on the street?
STAFF 161
Okay, so, yeah,
Kurt Boone
Tackle football on the street.
STAFF 161
Yeah, so basically, it was an adolescent mind, it will make their own fun,
regardless of, of the environmental circumstances, how traumatic or bad it may
be. You'll see kids usually, you know, to make their own fun. So we had games
like, like Ringolevio, right. And Johnny on the Pony and Skelzies
00:17:00
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
right. We used to play stickball in the middle of the street. You know, it was a
lot of games, you know, Hot Peas and Butter. You know, we used to make our own
makeshift basketball hoop out of the frame for chairs. Yeah, we would make a you
had this window on the street. That we was at there across the street from from
the building a row of tenement buildings?
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
on my end of Hewitt Place, there was this huge church building that's still
there to this day that kind of dominates that area. Huge church building. Right,
that ran the course from Westchester Avenue to where 161st Street intersected on
you Hewitt Place
Steven Payne
sure,
STAFF 161
and that church building had this huge wall. Right. And that's where we were
00:18:00like, on one in the bars with one of the windows of of the church, we would put
the, the, the frame for the chair what we used as a basketball hoop.
Steven Payne
Okay,
STAFF 161
And played right, you know, against that wall there.
Kurt Boone
Yeah.
STAFF 161
That wall also served as a beginning stage of some major graffiti tagging.
Steven Payne
Oh, okay.
STAFF 161
Okay, so now, the thing about the most dramatic one of the most dramatic things
about the South Bronx, when I first you know, came into the area was the writing.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
A lot of writing on walls and surfaces in, which was it was I never really
noticed that
Steven Payne
Sure.
STAFF 161
to that extreme in Staten Island it was almost non existent. You know, and In
00:19:00Staten Island. I did have a pre-experience seeing it. When um because at the
time I was living in Staten Island, they was just building the Verrazano Narrows
Bridge, not too far from where I was living with the foster parents there with
the Verrazano Narrows Bridge that was being built. It was in construction during
that period, and I used to, you know, it was a distance from the house but I
used to go over there. And like, right over in the construction area,
Steven Payne
yeah.
STAFF 161
But basically under where, you know, the, the base of the bridge was being
built. I would see some of my my first experiences seeing you know, graffiti
tagging, right. Right in Staten Island that was, you know, very minimal. That
00:20:00was like the most, you know, biggest experience. I've you know, seeing it. But
again, the South Bronx, when I first arrived, there was like, dramatic. As far
as amount of writing that I saw. It was like, just about everywhere, you know,
you know, the exterior of buildings and the interior of buildings.
Steven Payne
Sure, sure.
STAFF 161
And so that was based and even in the school, I used to go my first school,
public school. in um that's that part of the Bronx, South Bronx, on Hewitt
Place. In Fort Apache section was PS 130, which was down the street on Hewitt
Place on the other side of Hewitt Place near like, more or less 156th Street.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
But on 156 Street and Southern Boulevard.
Steven Payne
Sure,
00:21:00
STAFF 161
right. So it was, some walking distance from where I was living at 858, Hewitt
Place and that was, you know, my first grades public grade school location, PS
130. And I did my first years of public school there. Now, In the school, right,
there was like these wooden desks.
Kurt Boone
Yeah,
STAFF 161
right. And, you know, I'm talking about the old school wooden desks with the inkwell.
Steven Payne
Oh,
STAFF 161
yeah. So that's how old it was the inkwell, it's like you dip the pen in the
but. So they had right the desks. And the desks were very interesting to me. I
thought it'd be an understatement to say I was a little bit distracted in
school. Right? Um, I just got in the habit of doodling, doodling on the desk,
00:22:00writing and drawing stuff. It always seemed to be somewhat of a therapeutic type
of thing for me to draw or sketch things. And you had these amazing carvings and
writings on those wooden desks. Yeah, and that just, you know, I would just sit
there in different, you know, sometimes I'll be at this desk or that doesn't, it
wasn't a standard desk that I was at. And I would just be amazed at the writings
and the carvings that were in. On the desk.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
you know, yeah. And so I kind of got involved in doing those writing some
carvings through the doodlings, right,
Steven Payne
sure.
STAFF 161
Or You can carve something out into the desk, or you can just, you know, draw or
write what your because you had pens and pencils.
Steven Payne
Yeah, yeah.
STAFF 161
Yeah. So
00:23:00
Kurt Boone
that kind of writing you. maybe. I know that what I was seeing and you would
say, Oh, Johnny loves Carol, or, you know, you put girlfriend and boyfriend
style, you know,
STAFF 161
well, yeah. Okay, so are you talking about like, like, General? General graffiti
writing? Yeah. This was more or less like, um, like, some artistic renderings?
Yeah, like, sketchings and stuff like that. And people would leave their names.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
Kurt Boone
Oh,
STAFF 161
yeah. leave their names. Right. Yeah. So yeah. So yeah, the romantic type things
like, you know, they were there too. But this was more or less. People would
like, like, draw things and carve things into those those wooden desks.
Kurt Boone
cartoon characters, or the famous, like spider man?
STAFF 161
Yes. Stuff like that. Yeah. And, and see, um, you know, I wasn't really like,
00:24:00you know, very aware of the subconscious of it at that point.
Steven Payne
Sure.
STAFF 161
Of my ability to sketch things or write things.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Because I had a younger brother that I met when I came from Staten Island to my
mother's home in in the South Bronx. Right. My brother Joseph was he just was
extremely talented from from a youth and he would draw things. He would draw
things on sight. I never forget like, like the early cartoons.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Like your Flintstones and the Jetsons. Woody Woodpecker, Casper, Bugs Bunny,
Casper the Friendly Ghost, and Joseph basically was just getting out of diapers.
00:25:00It was amazing that he would sit in front of the TV. Right? And this time, we're
talking about, you know, still black and white TVs,
Steven Payne
yeah,
STAFF 161
And the big cabinet TVs, furniture type things with the big screen and antenna
that sat on top, you know, what, you know, big antenna? Dial the antenna, and so
forth. You know? Yes. So, um, Joseph we would, you know, my mother had that, you
know? And, um, you know, which is, you know, a blessing in a lot of ways, you
know, being, you know, a poor, a poor woman by herself at this point.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
And, and I had a four, four other brothers and sisters. Right, that I'm just meeting.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Because in the interim, while I was in foster care, my mother had other
00:26:00children. So I came into this environment, where I'm just meeting new brothers
and sisters. And Joseph being one of them.
Steven Payne
Sure.
STAFF 161
Yeah. And other brothers and sisters. were younger, of course, we had David and
Daniel, and Adam, who were in foster care with me. Right? They were just under
me and in age, and then Joseph came next. And Joseph was the one that was the
one that that was very artistic. In, he would, he would draw the Flintstones
just sitting in front of the TV, just like that, you know, he'd get a piece of
paper and a pencil. And he would just draw the Flintstones. And um Casper the
Friendly Ghost, or Wendy, the Witch and, you know, yeah, Bugs Bunny, just like
that. And to this day, you know, he's, you know, he still draws. So I was amazed
00:27:00by that. And now in Staten Island. While I was in grade school, I had some
indication because there was this like that in the grade school that I was in
Staten Island.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
There were desks old desks like that. But they weren't. Marked as much as these
desks that were in PS 1 30.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
But they were markings. Because they're wooden desks they're wooden desks those
old wooden desks. And but they weren't as marked as the ones that I saw in PS
130. And so I would say that, that was like the really beginning I didn't really
start drawing too much on paper. As opposed and this is like you know, in
retrospect, it kind of like doing that I started marking on surfaces like that,
00:28:00before I actually really got into drawing on paper.
Steven Payne
Sure, sure.
STAFF 161
Right. So those wooden desks, those old wooden desks with that inkwell, you
know, were like, basically, like, my first sketching pads,
Steven Payne
wow. Wow,
STAFF 161
My first sketching pads, and so I quickly realized that, you know, maybe it was
a genetic thing, and, but I could sketch certain, you know, basic things too, as
well. So I got into, you know, sketching and drawing things to basically as a
distraction in school. I was a little bit distracted in school.
Steven Payne
Sure.
STAFF 161
I had classes that I appreciate it more than others. Right.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
English in and writing classes and history classes. I appreciated. And, of
course, art classes.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
He had these arts and crafts classes back then. That you got to be creative.
00:29:00
Steven Payne
Sure. Yeah.
STAFF 161
To my dismay, New York was going through a fiscal crisis at that time.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
And the funding for a lot of those music and art classes. Right were taken away.
Steven Payne
Yep.
STAFF 161
And so they ceased to exist. And I think, you know, in an environment like the
South Bronx, based on what the South Bronx was, was was going through, and the
disenfranchisement that was our Bronx at that time in the people in the South
Bronx. I got to realize, in that area of the South Bronx, Fort Apache section
specifically seem to be ostracized.
00:30:00
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Politically
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
It was like a blaming thing. Like, because of the high rate of fires.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
And the decay of the neighborhood and such. And the high gang, gang, street gang presence.
Steven Payne
Sure.
STAFF 161
and drug addiction, you know, a lot of heroin.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Available in that part of the Bronx? And what? It seemed like that politically,
an immediate such that that those people that were living in the area were
blamed for that.
Steven Payne
Absolutely.
STAFF 161
And I always thought that was so unfair.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Because what I got from the decay of the, the buildings, the tenement buildings
that were in the area, is that, okay? If those people, they're renting, that
00:31:00building, you know, the upkeep of the building, is the responsibility of the
property management and the landlord. And that was basically non existent. A lot
of those buildings, right? They were, at least most of the buildings during that
time were heated, heated, you know, heat and hot water. with the old coal
burning furnaces. So I remember the old coal burning furnaces where the trucks
would come in, and they would have this shaft, this slide that would go down and
attach into the basement of the building. And they would just just have the
coal, coal slide into the basement, and remember that the superintendent that
00:32:00have to shovel the coal into the furnace to keep the buildings heated.
Steven Payne
Yeah. Yeah.
STAFF 161
And that seemed to dismantle, you know, very quickly you know because you had to
have you had to have a superintendent that would maintain that, that those coal
burning furnaces, you know, because you had to take out the ashes.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Yeah. And, you know, so it was a big job to do that plus the, to sweep and mop
the building and do repairs and such like that.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Yeah. But um, this, this, this whole block here, on Hewitt Place was a was a
good representation of the decay of that whole area of the South Bronx.
Steven Payne
Sure. Wow. Oh, yeah, sure. So what what about the people who lived in your
building or on Hewitt Place? What kinds of people lived on the block? Or was
00:33:00your family close with?
STAFF 161
Okay, so the area was generally African American and Hispanic, mostly on Puerto Rican,
Steven Payne
yeah,
STAFF 161
Hispanics, that lived on the block. My Side of Hewitt Place including 862 was
the last residential building and my building was 858 and then it proceeded to
go up, you know, the street towards Longwood my side, a lot of African Americans
right. And then it seemed like it was only segregated between Hispanics and
African Americans on the same block. And then you had, like, in my building, you
only had one Hispanic family on the ground floor. On my building. And you didn't
see Hispanic families. Until you got like, towards the middle of the block near
00:34:00like, maybe 161st Street.
Steven Payne
Okay.
STAFF 161
Right. You had another Hispanic family there.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Right. And that didn't change for a while.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Right. So mostly African American and Hispanic families.
Steven Payne
Sure.
STAFF 161
Yeah. So my thing was, like, you know, I was the new kid. Me and my brother,
Adam, right. Were the new kids on the block and, you know, in a hostile
environment, but they it was definitely hostile.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Right. Um, you could be and we were, we could and we were singled out, as you
know. you know targets like who, who you? Where you come from?
Steven Payne
The kids on the block.
STAFF 161
Yeah. And so
Kurt Boone
this is like 10 years old, right?
STAFF 161
10 years old? Yeah, we ten me and um Adam is like one year under me. So he's
00:35:00nine. And I'm ten. So a lot of fights. A lot of fights, especially like, in
school, right?
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
from going to school and back a lot of fights in school, after school, a lot of
fights. And you know, you got the street gang presence as well.
Steven Payne
Sure,
STAFF 161
Which is starting to develop more now we're this is the 60s.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
This is like, I returned to my mother in the South Bronx in 1965. So this is the
60s or mid 60s. At the height of the Civil Rights Movement, and other movements
that were happening. And those movements were that were reflected in the
00:36:00neighborhood the street that I was on.
Steven Payne
Sure.
STAFF 161
And I remember on Beck Street, okay, which was on the other side of Longwood
Avenue, I ran across Longwood Avenue, Beck Street. But I'm on the other side of
Longwood Avenue on Beck Street, you had like, like a safe house for the Black
Panther Party?
Steven Payne
Ah,
STAFF 161
yeah,
Steven Payne
sure.
STAFF 161
And I remember like, you know, getting to know and frequently seeing those people.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Right. And you also had, I believe, on Kelly street, a location where the Young
Lords was, so you had these militant militant groups that were in the neighborhood?
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
As well as on street gangs. Street basic street gangs. And when I say street
00:37:00gangs, the outlaw street gangs. Outlaw street gangs were like, the prototype of
say, like, the Hells Angels type of appearance with
Kurt Boone
The Jacket
STAFF 161
Yeah, with the cut sleeve, denim jackets. And the, the colors on the back, which
was the rocker, top rocker, you know, and a bottom rocker, and sent the patch.
Steven Payne
Sure.
STAFF 161
And even though that was, you know, in a lot of respects, frightening in a
sense, when you would like see them?
Kurt Boone
Yeah,
STAFF 161
It to me, it was very attractive.
Steven Payne
Absolutely.
STAFF 161
Right. Now. Now, now, now, you might say that, that's odd, but yet, it's
attractive. You know, and I've had my experiences before are kind of more or
00:38:00less with what I would call crewed up.
Steven Payne
Sure.
STAFF 161
Right. I had my experiences where, you know, being the new, you know, kid in
the, in the block, when I got singled out, right, being by walking by yourself
as as a as a youth in that environment. Right. You get singled out by the street
gang, street gangs are all like, like wolf packs, or like wolf packs, that would
like single out a lone wolf or lone sheep or whatever. And you would you would
get victimized.
Steven Payne
What are some of the names of the street gangs from that period that you remember?
STAFF 161
Okay. So you had major street gangs that were in that neighborhood during that
period? Like the Savage Skulls?
Steven Payne
Sure. Sure.
STAFF 161
The the Peacemakers
00:39:00
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
The Black Spades.
Steven Payne
Sure. Yeah.
STAFF 161
The Bachelors.
Steven Payne
Yeah. The Bachelors,
STAFF 161
the Turbans, the Javelins And the Ghetto Brothers had a clubhouse that was like,
right around the corner, like I remember now. And on 61st Street intersected my
street he Hewitt Place but 163rd Street, which was right around the corner off
of Westchester Avenue.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
Right. There was a hill that went up off of Westchester Avenue 163rd Street, and
up that on that right on that hill, well actually on 162nd Street.
Steven Payne
Sure
STAFF 161
On 162nd and then you had the big hill was 163rd on 162nd Street. There was a clubhouse
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
For the Ghetto Brothers,
00:40:00
Steven Payne
Yeah, it's like a parking garage now, something like that. But yeah,
STAFF 161
yeah. That was the clubhouse for the Ghetto Brothers. Now, what attracted me to
the Ghetto Brothers. Other than the fact that they was right there in the
neighborhood, and they would be seen frequently, right. was, um, they had like
this this Latin rock band.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
And they would play open jams in the neighborhood, you know, regularly,
especially up on the hill on 163rd Street up on the hill. They had a bodega that
was there,
Steven Payne
sure.
STAFF 161
And they would play in front of that bodega. But they had other locations along
in that area where I would see them, you know, they would plug into the light
poles for their amps and stuff. And just, you know, and play, you know, Latin
rock music. And that really attracted me as far as that music playing. But you
00:41:00would hear for blocks over when they hooked up.
Steven Payne
I'm sure.
STAFF 161
That was that was a big, that was a big. That was a big event.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
To see that happening? You know, and I, and I would go up there and check them
out. So eventually I gravitated towards them. And I started going up there to
the clubhouse, right.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
And when I got up there, one, one day I met on one of the older members, there.
Not old, but he um Slick and he, I was talking to him he, any about? You know
the music and, and, and the organization. And he invited me to come for a
meeting that they were going to have. And when I went to the meeting a person
00:42:00who was there that had you know, very dramatic impact. On how I gravitated
towards the Ghetto Brothers was Black Benjie.
Steven Payne
Absolutely.
STAFF 161
Now Black Benjie was mostly the Ghetto Brothers were Hispanic.
Steven Payne
Sure, sure.
STAFF 161
And Black Benjie was African American. And so and, and the first connection I
made was a Hispanic guy named was Slick, right? And so they had like, what you
call a youth division. Got to understand that Black Benjie was was an ex addict himself.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
And he was like, like, either a peer counselor or straight up drug counselor of
some sort. And, um, he was also a member of the Ghetto Brothers as well. Now in
the Ghetto Brothers, they they weren't like the, to me. They weren't like the
00:43:00the conventional, or a regular street gang in that neighborhood.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
Outlaw street gang. They, they kind of more or less, gave me the impression.
They were more or less like the, like the Young Lords for the Black Panther
Party in how they approached their organization. They were more they were more
militant, and aware, aware of their circumstances and situations socially and
politically. A lot of them wore like, like, you know, right.
Steven Payne
Some of them even wore, even started wearing berets.
STAFF 161
Oh, yeah, they had the berets. Yeah, they had. Yeah, they wore those berets
like, similar to what the Young Lords would wear. And they were into the
politics of Puerto Rico.
Steven Payne
Sure,
STAFF 161
yeah. And the liberation of Puerto Rico and such like that, which I didn't
really understand. You know what that was all about, but their colors, alright.
00:44:00They had the center patch, and it had three garbage cans in the center patch. I
didn't I didn't like them one of the things that that attracted me to the street
gangs was the colors.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
And certain street gangs had nice colors. And what what it was was the imagery
that was in the colors. And eventually because of my sketching and drawing
abilities, I got into drawing different images of those street gang colors. Most
of it of it being like with skulls, skulls and crossbones type things. Most of
them had it like the Savage Nomads and the Savage Skulls.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
that was, you know, so I got into drawing skulls and, and bones and stuff like
that. But um, Yeah, but the Ghetto Brothers had three garbage cans. And I was
00:45:00always like, why is it? But the thing is, is that their thing was assisting the
Department of Sanitation, and cleaning out empty lots and stuff.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
for some reason, I don't know how they got into that. But that was a, I wouldn't
say duties, but part of what they were volunteering to do.
Steven Payne
Sure,
STAFF 161
Right, in that, in that part of the South Bronx, like cleaning out empty lots
and stuff, along with the Department, because it was this effort to try to clear
out some of these empty lots, which I think was almost futile, because it got so
bad with the mattresses and old furniture, and abandoned cars, and lots, was
just strewn with a lot of garbage and stuff. You know, and along with that, you
had a lot of rats in and you had a lot of stray dogs in and to this day, I
00:46:00wonder where did all those stray dogs go? They had a lot you had, like packs of
stray dogs that would roam the streets in the Bronx.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
Packs of them.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
You know, and, you know, they would like to, like move you off, off the off the
sidewalk, you know, they would come through. Like, they wouldn't run or anything
like that you had, they're coming down as a pack of dogs. And you either you're
gonna move out the way or they gonna move you out the way.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
So I'm not these packs of dogs and that would roam the streets and cats along
with the cats. And, and, and rats, a lot of rats from the empty lots and stuff
like that. So it was very like, like, you know, this, disconcerting type of
environment for me to come into, you know, that I just had to, you know, I had
to get you know, accustomed to it.
Kurt Boone
So in junior high school like Queens, that's when I really saw the gangs so the
gangs would come with the colors so they'd be in the same classroom with you.
00:47:00You were sitting in class and you know you got members wearing their colors in
class, What was your junior high school, cuz I want to lead into the, to the
high school and then we kind of get into the graffiti, but you're going into
graffiti before kind of like high school. But so let's just talk cause in junior
high school would experience I felt was quite interesting how in Queens it
wasn't as rough as they way it was up in the Bronx. But you started at
elementary school you're fighting fighting in the schoolyards and stuff. But
when you're getting to junior high, it takes it's more aggressive.
STAFF 161
Yeah, absolutely.
Kurt Boone
Right. And then you run into the gangs straight on?
STAFF 161
Yeah. Okay, so yeah, that's true. But um, in in this, you had some gang members
that were still in school.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
But a good majority of them had left school. Right, a good majority during that
month, because see, they were so they were very, they were a little more. They
00:48:00couldn't blend in, like, you know, what, you could probably, you know, say up of
the current gang situation. They couldn't blend it because of the outlaw appearance.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
You got to understand these district gangs of that period. They had the that
look, they they wore denim cut off sleeve jackets, and with the very blatant
colors on the on the back of denim jacket. Right? And numerous patches. And I'm
talking about, you know, patches with skull and crossbones, swastikas, and,
yeah, and other things that, you know, would be like, to most people offensive.
MC boots, you know, the motorcycle boots, and big flop hats. They deliberately
gave this appearance of dread or terror. Yeah. And, um, you know, and like, the
00:49:00Hispanic ones, you know, long hair or during that period in African American
kids, huge Afros.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
You know, so they were very visual. So it wasn't, so I kind of more or less, you
know, copied that in a lot of ways.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
So eventually, I became part of the Ghetto Brothers your younger, younger
division of the Ghetto Brothers. Right. And under the tutelage of Slick and
Black Benjie. So a very bad situation happened. Benjie was more diplomatic, you
know, a type of person. A Very What do you call it? expressive, brother he was
00:50:00was able to, to relate and express himself because I don't know what his
education was, but it appeared that he had some education. You know, he had he,
you know, he knew how to, to converse, and to relate, and perhaps what he was
doing with the counseling, brought that in hand, but he was the person that
would counsel and organize. And but the main thing with him was the the
peacemaking thing.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Right. Which eventually led to his death. You know, then street gangs were very
violent. And there was a lot of rivalries with the street gangs for territory
and and what happened is that there was an account of or report of a disturbance
00:51:00with what's a few street gangs and Black Benjie showed up with a few younger
Ghetto Brothers. Right. And to this day, I, you know, I'm saying to myself,
because he will bring the younger ones when I don't, you know, he, some of the
older Ghetto Brothers, you know, I, you know, you know, weren't his his his main
focus, he would deal with a lot of the younger members of the, of the Ghetto
Brothers. And so, that's what we would be seeing with, and today that this
incident happened, he was with a few younger Ghetto Brothers, and I, and I, you
know, to this day, you know, and that this, I could have been there at the
situation when this thing happened. Right. But he confronted this conflict, with
00:52:00a few gangs, you know, Javelins and other gang members that were there. And 7 Immortals.
Steven Payne
Mortals for sure.
STAFF 161
7 Immortals
Steven Payne
The Mongols, maybe were in the mix somewhere,
STAFF 161
yeah, possibly, but the main was Javelins, 7 Immortals, and a few other gangs
that was there. And he got there wile it was already set off the situation.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
you know, and immediately, he tried to interject into the situation. Now, I
wasn't there, I didn't see it, actually, myself, but the report was, he tried to
interject in the situation immediately, and to separate these his rival gangs
members, and it turned on him and he was eventually killed at that location. So
00:53:00you know, that that led to a few things that I, I decided I was going to do and
that was one that you know, come out of that environment of, or that situation
of being, you know, gangbanger so to speak you know part of that, that gang
street gang in scene there in that area. And also to like, more or less focusing
on graffiti writing. At that point, I had acquired spray paint, right when I say
spray paint, you know, you know the spray paint?
Steven Payne
Yeah (everyone laughs).
STAFF 161
So spray paint, so this is where everything set off, right?
Steven Payne
Yeah,
00:54:00
STAFF 161
right now. Now, here's the thing with this, right. This was really, this really
got me right here. Right? When I say this really got me. There was a few stores.
There was a few stores. Remember Prospect Avenue was this train station.
Prospect Avenue. What's a train station that would get off the IRT 2 and 5
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
that the walk down to where I was living at. And by that point, right, I was, I
was going to school or I had left. I left PS 130 and was going to junior high
school. 52 52 right. One, one notable prior student that was 52 was Colin Powell.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Colin Powell used to go to that school. Right. That was where Colin Powell was
here, you know, yeah. So um, yeah. So PS 52. was a little more dramatic. You had
00:55:00mentioned that IS 52 They call it but through a junior high at that in between
grade school and high school. Yeah. Eventually the high school would go to would
be Theodore Roosevelt. or Junior High School 52 I noticed you got a little more dramatic.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
And, um, the practice it was like, you know, like these little um, handball
courts and, and recreational areas that was around that school.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Where
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
specifically, like Savage Skulls and other main gangs would like, keep, you
know, keep up residence right in that area.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
So it got a little more, you know, funkier, so to speak, right. You know,
dealing with with, with junior high school with school, period, you know, when I
got to Junior High School 52. My mother took me out of that school. Right, me
00:56:00and my brother and put us in a parochial school situation that was run by the
church she was attending, right?
Steven Payne
Sure.
STAFF 161
And that started me riding the trains and the bus.
Steven Payne
Oh,
STAFF 161
right.
Steven Payne
Where was that high school located?
STAFF 161
That was on Forest Avenue. Right. Not too far from from Morris High School.
Steven Payne
Okay.
STAFF 161
Right down the street from Morris High School.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Right. On Forest, R.T. Hudson, which was a a school that was run by the church. Right.
Kurt Boone
It was a Seventh Day Adventist.
STAFF 161
it was a Seventh Day Adventist school that was run. Yeah. By that church. Yeah. Yeah.
Steven Payne
Okay,
STAFF 161
which my mother was a member of that church, okay. And she felt that was, you
know, the best environment to get us out of you know, getting in trouble
because, you know, a few incidences did happen in 52 You know, fights and stuff
00:57:00that you know, that she was called in and and things happen and stuff. So she
seen, you know, some signs and she said, The best thing is to try to pull me out
of that school and put me into that particular parochial school that was run by
this church.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
And I'm so dramatic thing now. Now all of a sudden I don't wear any uniform to
school right and stuff. And but right next door to me was was Danny Danny was
one of the the people the young kids of my age that was on the street, Danny and
his sister, Bettina. Right. And they know we're close. friends or associates of
my family. Right?
Steven Payne
Sure.
STAFF 161
Because they've we went, you know, similar denomination of church.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
And now Danny, and Bettina is going to that parochial school RT Hudson, on
Forest Avenue. That me and Adam is going to so we're traveling the same route
00:58:00every day, and attending the same school. So we got, you know, pretty, pretty
tight. As far but here's the thing, right? On the street on Hewitt Place? Right?
Something became apparent, right. Besides all the writings that were in the
neighborhood, right, on the exterior of buildings and stuff, and other services
in the, in that area, the public and in the interior of buildings, right. And
specifically in school buildings to on the desks, And bathroom stalls and stuff
like that. I got to meet some of the people who was putting the marks there.
Steven Payne
Ah,
STAFF 161
and that was the most dramatic thing. And that's the thing that never ceases to
amaze me. Or what what graffiti markings? Is that the mystique of seeing the
00:59:00mark continually in different places. And, and is the owner of the mark.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
And what the person is like, right then and and why are they making that mark?
You know, and that was a very appealing thing for me to see.
Kurt Boone
What did the marks say at that time? Where they different marks the same name?.
STAFF 161
Yeah well, okay. Well, okay, so I would see different marks, right. Mostly. It
was like gang related stuff. Right gang related stuff, you know, um, you know,
in street gangs you you have to have a street gang Yeah, right, you'd have your
01:00:00government name, your government name, it's the name, your birth name that was
given to you at birth to your parents and on your birth certificate. But you
wouldn't use that name. you wouldn't use that name and in the street gang,, so
immediately in the street gang, I got a nickname, Corky C O R K Y. Yeah. And
that was one of the first names I used to write along with my affiliation.
Right? with the street gang?
Yeah,
Kurt Boone
That was the Ghetto Brothers you were a Ghetto Brother right?
STAFF 161
Yeah. Um, but before that also had Mr. Ed. Mr. Ed, I, I'm now in the Mr. Ed
factor came in because of my name is Edward.
Steven Payne
Yeah, yeah.
STAFF 161
And, and in the mid early, early to mid 60s, they had this TV sitcom. Yeah, Mr.
01:01:00Ed the Talking Horse. And, you know, it was like, more or less a comedy type
thing. Because, you know, he's talking horse thing, you know. But, um, so I used
to get, like, you know, teased about it in school. Right. You know, it's like,
in school in school during that period, especially a kid that's not that they
didn't know them. The kids the kids. If the kids didn't know you their whole
life. They didn't know, you know, you from being born and raised up in there.
And all of a sudden, here's this like, 10 year old 11 year old kid, right? In
the neighborhood. Right. Right. If you if you didn't make a name for yourself,
or give them a name? Yeah. Right. They would give you a name. Yeah. Okay, or you
n image right and usually it'll be something that you wouldn't like, it wouldn't
01:02:00be flattering. Yeah, it wouldn't be flattering. You said, because most of the
time, they didn't want to give you they didn't want want to refer to you. As
your birth name.
Steven Payne
Sure. Yeah.
STAFF 161
All right. Edward wasn't an appealing thing. to call somebody to them. Right. So
or they would make mockery of it. So, you know, Mr. Ed the talking Horse thing
came in? Right. As you know, basically they call we call we call you know,
snapping. Snapping. Snapping is being in school.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Snapping is being in school. And you being made mockery of in the classroom.
Right. So your only defense, right for that is, is to be able to snap back but
harder, you know, what I'm saying? And embarrass people. And you know, what, see
01:03:00that just led to a whole bunch of fights.
Steven Payne
Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
STAFF 161
Yeah. In class out of class continuously, right? Because that was your only
defense because you in class, and you continually being ridiculed and mocked and
snapped on. Right. So you got to come back, you know, hard hardcore, like with
your snaps. And so I got good at that. But the only thing with that is that it
led to a lot of fights. A lot of fights. So, you know, so I kind of, you know,
became diplomatic with it with the whole Mr. Ed thing.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
I just adopted it. I started drawing. Right. And I and I kind of related to the
theme the whole Mr. Ed with, you know, with the horse and everything I started
drawing horses. Right. And cowboy type of themes.
01:04:00
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Right. The cowboy riding the horse. The the cowboy hat.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
The stars. Right. Okay. You know, Deputy badge star, right. And I started
throwing that around on the desk. And in the restrooms and stuff like that.
Kurt Boone
Oh Okay. and you wasn't moving on it wasn't on paper at that time?
STAFF 161
And Stuff like that. That's what I'm saying. I'm leaving. Yeah, I'm leaving,
like the desks now. Right. Yeah. And now I'm starting to put it actually on walls.
Kurt Boone
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Mainly around the school and stuff like that. So that's my first, you know,
really would say tagging experience.
Steven Payne
Sure,
STAFF 161
like grade school like it's PS. 130 Still,
Steven Payne
yeah.
STAFF 161
So like, by (IS) 52 it became a little more dramatic now by 52. Right now, um,
the whole thing with spray paint came in. Now,
Steven Payne
okay,
STAFF 161
now the day would spray paint. Right now you understand that spray paint was
01:05:00something that wasn't it wasn't made, you know,
Kurt Boone
It wasn't made for art.
STAFF 161
It wasn't made for writing or drawing with.
Kurt Boone
Yeah,
STAFF 161
spray paint was made basically as a utility type tool industrial use thing.
Right, you know, to do you know, no utility and industrial work with, right?
Yeah. Um, I would first my first account with it right, I can remember would be
that we needed spray paint to cover the identity of a stolen bike. Yeah, if the
bike costs, yes, so. Yeah. So, basically, at this point, yeah. So here's what's
01:06:00happening right? At this point, we got this this. This block crew as Topaz liked
to call it block crew. And on the block crew, you know, it's like, you know, you
know, you had a couple of like, marauding kids in the block crew, including
myself. You know, would go around. And we shoplift stuff. shoplifting became a
major thing. And stealing bikes?
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
From other neighborhoods. So what happened is that we realized that the book,
you can't keep riding that bike around, if it's stolen. And if it's being looked
for by by the cops.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
So we got to change up the appearance of the above the bike. And so up on
Prospect Avenue. We had Woolworth and John's Bargain Store. And both of them had
had like, supplied spray paint. Right? And so we acquired some spray paint and
01:07:00spray painted the bike, right?
Kurt Boone
Did you rack it or bought it?,
STAFF 161
No well. No, actually everything. There was no money involved. We have no money.
There was no yeah. There was absolutely no money. So, so so so so shoplifting
became a thing for everything, you know, for eating for clothing yourself.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
And for acquiring anything.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
there was no money at all you can get right. Later on, you know, as far as
hustling thing, like, he would have stuff like packing bags at the, at the a&p
That was on Westchester Ave or, you know, or doing some little chore for
somebody, you know, carrying bags for somebody back to, you know, from the
supermarket or something like that. But in general, there was no money to be
01:08:00had. Right? So, shoplifting became a major factor. Right? In just having stuff
and getting things. So that's the first, you know, experience with like, spray
paint. And then you had, like, you know, really, there was some spray paint that
was in the basement of the superintendent, where the superintendent of the
building had some spray paint down in the basement for some reason. Yeah. And we
got that spray paint with access to the basement, he had this whole maze of
basements, and apartments down in the lower part of the tenement, and in his
backyard is huge backyard, whole maze in the backyard. And, and of the tenements
and, and the lower part, our basement you had these basement apartments with a
01:09:00boiler rooms in the basement with the boiler and the cold room, and all this was
and those those after a lot of the superintendents ceased to keep maintenance in
the building or they were no longer you know, taking care of the building those
basement apartments where the boilers and stuff like that was became like, like
shooting dens for the heroin addicts.
Steven Payne
Sure, sure. Sure.
STAFF 161
So that was either in the basement, or it was up on the roof. Yeah, yeah. And so
the apartment that I lived in with my mother and my younger brothers and sisters
was on the top floor, just before we hit the roof. So there was continually
junkies up on that roof landing. shooting heroin was a terrifying scene.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
right. So between the junkie shooting heroin in the street gangs, right, that
you You know, you was always had to be on the lookout for always on, you know,
01:10:00on, you was always on the target side of them. Right. It was pretty dreadful environment.
Kurt Boone
So two questions for you. See you getting your spray paint. What age kind of
like where you like cause Junior High is like 11, 12 years old?
STAFF 161
Yeah. So that around that time was the spray paint? Yeah, yeah.
Kurt Boone
You being 11 or 12 years old? It's pretty dramatic to see all that how did how
did you take that in?
STAFF 161
I'm already in the environment, and I see what it is right. I know it's not it's
not Staten Island no more. Right. And, you know, this is where I have to be. So
I have to make my niche. Right. Right now. I'm now the first thing was, is
knowing how to defend yourself?
01:11:00
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Right. So, um, so me and my brother, seeing that we were in a situation together
and we were the oldest of our siblings. So it's the responsibility to me to me
the responsibility was that I had younger brothers and sisters. Right? That, you
know, I had to defend. And I noticed that that that larger families like mine of
kids, right, that the older brothers were the ones that will come to the defense
of the younger brothers and sisters. Or you had to make a reputation for
yourself that don't mess with his him or his brothers and sisters. because so
and so will get you.
Steven Payne
Yeah, yeah.
STAFF 161
So and I had to be what your fighting game or whatever, or whatever, you know,
or, you know, or the get knocked in the head with a stick game or I'll stick you
with a with a K55 or 007 game?
01:12:00
Steven Payne
Yeah, yeah.
STAFF 161
Yeah. So it was with that. So, me, me, me and AJ was like, our jumping game. Right?
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Now, when I say jumping game, you know, I would like say, Yo, listen, you see
that? They down on the corner right there. Right. So when we get down there? You
know, I'm saying I'll give you the cue. And that dude that one particular dude
we got to jump on him.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
All right. And we're gonna whip him out. And so and then the rest of them will
know that we gonna do that. Now. No. So so that started happening. Now AJ became
more of a fighter than me.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Right. My thing was, I'll hit you in the head with a stick. Yeah, that was my
thing. I'll hit you the head with a stick.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
Kurt Boone
That was your brother right?>
STAFF 161
Right. So but AJ will fight you. Right?
Kurt Boone
And that's your brother?
STAFF 161
Yeah, yeah. The younger brother. Yeah. Adam, So he'll hit you in the head with a
01:13:00stick so. So the AJ thing was eventually would become his tag. And my tag would
be Mr. Ed 161. And Staff 161 Eventually, right. Yeah. So that came eventually.
But that's what I'm referring to as AJ his tag. Alright, right. So yeah, so that
thing became a dramatic experience dealing with that part, hostile part of the
Bronx. So spray paint came in into play. So up on Prospect Avenue, we had
Woolworth and you had John's Bargain Store. John's Bargain store had had had
wet-look Paint, wet-look paint. Right, which I thought was very interesting.
It's supposed to give you the shine wet look type of appearance.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
So the spray paint came into play. Now the church building that was across the
street. That became basically my, my first public canvas.
01:14:00
Steven Payne
Sure, sure. Sure.
STAFF 161
Yeah. Now. Okay, so on that street with spray paint for the first time. I
actually drew something. Right. And that was early 1970. I was around. Yeah.
Early 1970. I drew something with spray paint. And that was a skull and
crossbones. What with a crown
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Right. And there's the bones of the skull and crossbones were dripping. So I
drew the drip. So I actually drew that on there. And that was a very dramatic
thing. But the thing is, is that that brought a conflict too, because this the
Savage Skulls, their colors
Steven Payne
yeah
STAFF 161
was a skull, not a skull and crossbones. but a skull with this here Nazi helmet on.
01:15:00
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
And I never forget that. One of the major members of the Savage Skulls, which
that baby Skulls its not Hippie,
Steven Payne
oh, Hippie. Okay.
STAFF 161
Right.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
he comes to the neighborhood. Right. And he sees that skull and crossbones that
I wrote.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Or drew on the on the side of that wall, that wall. Right. And he's staring at
it and starts kicking in, and stuff like that. And, you know, and now so that
what about that street conflict? Now, at that time?
Kurt Boone
Did he know you drew it?
STAFF 161
He didn't know who he didn't know who drew it. Now. Now, this is just prior.
This is just prior to me establishing what I will refer to as a graffiti crew or
01:16:00graffiti club.
Steven Payne
Sure, sure. Sure.
STAFF 161
Now, I mentioned that there was like, at least a few people that I had became
aware of, on that street on the on that particular street that were were gang
members, street gang members of different street gangs.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
And, but they were all that I knew. And I know, you no, um interacted with
either, you know, playing stickball or a basketball and on our makeshift court,
or Johnny on the Pony, ringolevio, skelzies, or whatever. Yeah, or just like,
um, he would go on these like exploration. Because adventures because the whole
01:17:00that whole environment, there was rooftops, basements, and stuff that, you know,
we would explore. So I had started to, you know, make my niche into the, the
youth crew, or the peers of my age that were in that community. So, like, so it
was a few people. So it was Danny that was next door.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Right. And there was Dope. And there was a Paul. And there was Kenny, and
Cookie. And Jojo. And Skeeter, and such like that, now some of these some of
01:18:00these guys, right. Some of these guys were like, at least two of them. Were part
of the of that whole affiliation with the Ghetto Brothers with me.
Steven Payne
Okay, okay.
STAFF 161
There was a younger division of the Ghetto Brothers, like they had the Baby
Skulls. They had younger division of the Ghetto Brothers, that Slick and Black
Benjie would like more or less counsel and supervise?
Steven Payne
Sure, sure.
STAFF 161
So that's what I was a part of. And along with a few other people on my street,
so that became apparent, like more dominant, because the other people that will
have that would belong to other gangs like the Savage Skulls, and the Black
Spades. Doug was a Black Spade. Super Slick was or Paul. Getting you know a
little ahead of him. Yeah. That was his tag, so Paul, was was part of the Savage Skulls.
01:19:00
Steven Payne
Okay,
STAFF 161
yeah, I found that kind of like, you know, dis dis concerning that, you know,
all these rival gangs on the same block and these guys I'm associating with, but
you got to understand that the whole nature of street gangs is that if you in
the community, and you're not like, associated with something that's dominating
on the street level like that, in some ways, and you like traveling in different
places, you left very vulnerable.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
so a lot. I understood that a lot of kids, right young youth become affiliated
with those things for like a support base that they usually, or ordinarily you
don't get they ordinarily don't get like either from their, their, their home,
or some other community based situation, right.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
street gang can be very supportive. Right for like family things for defense.
01:20:00And for essentials, food, clothing, sometimes even shelter. You know, you know,
companionship, you know.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
And, and so I got to understand that was a major thing. And again, like I said,
the Ghetto Brothers was very appealing because they were more or less like
interactive socially in and as far as we want to help the community type thing.
Steven Payne
Sure.
STAFF 161
You know, they had social issues that they were backing.
Steven Payne
Yeah, yeah,
STAFF 161
that that I kind of like and then the whole thing was a music band. Right, that
they were playing, you know, for free in the community and stuff like that.
Alright, but again, like I said, I tended the after Black Benjie, you know,
01:21:00being killed, I tended to, like, grav, gravitate away from that, and more or
less towards, like, more graffiti writing?
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
so this is on the street. This is solely on the street now.
Steven Payne
Sure,
STAFF 161
but it it slowly gravitated to the mass transit system. Cause of, myself, my
younger brother, Danny. And his sister Bettina riding the buses and the train to
get to the private school. And so more time on the, on the trains and the buses,
and being on the interior of the buses and the trains. Right. gave us the
opportunity. For the to write on the interior of the trains and the buses. So
the marker thing, yeah, you had markers because, you know, of school and stuff
01:22:00like that. But um, that's I started getting my first interior tags, specifically
on Third Avenue El. Okay. And the 2 and the 5. And I can't recall the number of
the bus but the bus that went up Prospect Avenue. Right, that stopped right on
the corner of Westchester and Prospect, and headed, you know, uptown towards
Boston Row.
Steven Payne
Sure.
STAFF 161
Right. That bus I would take, as well as the 2 and the 5 to Third Avenue, and
switch to get the Third Avenue El. to the station where I would get off to go to
RT Hudson. And that ride right along along with our neighbor, Danny. We started
getting our first tags. on the Third Avenue El You know, that's a defunct line now.
Kurt Boone
You was writing Corky and Mr. Ed?
01:23:00
STAFF 161
I would write Corky Mr. Ed. And then eventually I got Staff Staff S T A F F.
Kurt Boone
And this is like right around you was like 14, 13, coming out of junior high
going into high?
STAFF 161
Yeah. I'm still like, like, like, like, 12 years old when I first go into RT Hudson.
Kurt Boone
Oh,
STAFF 161
yeah. And then, you know, like, by 13. You know, I just like that we fully
organized as far as graffiti on. Like I said, on that street, you had a few
people. Right, that I started to realize they were the author's
Kurt Boone
Oh,
STAFF 161
Of the tags, yeah. Again, it's that's the whole thing, the nature of tagging,
you see the tag first. And you get familiar with the tag?
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
And it brings the question mark, who, when and how, right. And that is a very
interesting factor. In the whole graffiti tagging scene is to see the tag first.
01:24:00And become familiar with the tag, and to to long to meet the author of the tag,
so I started meeting the author of the tags on my block. So that I put that
together. As far as commonality besides being, you know, on on the same block
around the same age, you know, the adverse of that is that How come you belong
to this gang and you belong to that gang and I belong to this gang, and so forth
we on the same block. But we still supposed to be like, Hewitt Place boys?
Steven Payne
Yes.
Kurt Boone
Okay.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
right. Yeah. All right. We got to get something a little more in common. And
that was like the graffiti tagging.
Steven Payne
Sure,
STAFF 161
right. And since by that point, Like, I was starting to draw things with the can.
01:25:00
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
right.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
I didn't, I didn't make nothing of it at that point. Right. But that wasn't
being done.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
As far as if it was being done, it was being done. Right. And that kind of more
or less led me to draw the skull and crossbones, and with the crown, it was it
is being done by gang members.
Steven Payne
Sure.
STAFF 161
But they would draw, you know, like, crude murals of they gang colors.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
At the handball courts, or something in their area. So that's what kind of more
or less attracted me and said oh look at that, you know, either it was the gang
colors themselves, or, like, the gang would like find a handball court or wall
near their turf area, and draw their colors.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Right. And so I kind of more or less, you know, got into drawing with the can
because of that.
Steven Payne
Okay. Yeah, sure.
01:26:00
Kurt Boone
Your inspiration. So, um, so you you mentioned a step deal you know, the 1970s,
and thought about developing this club? Did you? Did you already knew that it
was an ex Vandal crew already?
STAFF 161
Okay. Yeah. So I'm riding the trains, right, at that point, going back and forth
to school now, I'm doing more commuting. Now. I'm not like, you know, going to
school right there in the neighborhood, I'm leaving out the neighborhood,
specifically to go to school and traveling on buses and trains. Right? I start
to see tags in the interior of the trains.
Steven Payne
Sure,
STAFF 161
interior of the trains, right. And these are basically, you know, wouldn't be
like these, like, you know, heavy duty Marker was like the Pilots, it'd be like,
like, you know, like, little dry markers, and other smaller tip felt tip
markers. And I started to see the tags after a while. And so, I made the
01:27:00affiliation, right, based on what I seen and knew about street gangs and the
tags and marking turf, that the tags were from people that was in the general neighborhood.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Right. For instance, Lee 163. I knew that the number referred to the area where
the tagger was from
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
right.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
I kind of made that out. So I'm saying so Lee, and Lee with a very prevalent
tagger. And Sweet Duke 161. El Marko 174.
Steven Payne
Okay.
STAFF 161
And Bug 170.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
you know, I'm starting to see these tags, you know,
01:28:00
Kurt Boone
and that's on the interior before the outside? you would see the interior of
STAFF 161
the interior, mainly the interior of the train. Yeah. And this is like, like
felt tip. Tags. there wasn't, there wasn't, um, you would very rarely see
something marked on the outside or surface of a subway car.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
right. This is a 69, 70. You would very rarely see something marked on the
outside of a car. you would see a lot of tags and stuff on the street. Right,
depending on the area you was in occasionally you'd see something marked in a
subway station.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
right. But not a saturation of tags on the exterior of trains.
Steven Payne
Sure.
Kurt Boone
Most of the walls were prevalent too, like you were growing up and you would see
STAFF 161
in the neighborhood. Yeah.
Kurt Boone
On your neighborhood on the buildings on the side of your buildings.
STAFF 161
Especially in South Bronx neighborhood. Yeah. Yeah. And again, you know, a lot
01:29:00of people, you know, the gangs, they marked they turf,
Steven Payne
yeah.
STAFF 161
Right. And then you had a lot of political graffiti and stuff like that. And it
just came became a cultural thing. Right, that if you lived in a neighborhood,
you got to sign it.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
I just, it its just that's the appearance that I got from that. And I could and
was all on, you know, so. So, um, so And of course, you know, the, the more
historical people like Joe 182 and Taki 183
Steven Payne
Sure,
STAFF 161
They started to notice them.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
And of course, those those taggers, or writers are not in the general area.
They're like more like Washington Heights.
Steven Payne
Sure. So yeah,
STAFF 161
the way I became familiar with them is basically riding the subway.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
because they weren't, they didn't have tags in my neighborhood. Joe 182. And
Taki 183. So now I'm I'm getting to realize that the mass transit system would
01:30:00carry your tag around the city. Right? And it's a good way for your tag or your
graffiti name, right or handle will become known outside of your community.
Steven Payne
Yeah, yeah.
STAFF 161
Right because the whole thing was mainly to impress people within your
community, with graffiti now I also realized this in retrospect with the whole
thing. All the logic and in writing, vandalizing defacement defacing your
01:31:00community around you. If you know, for use of a better explanation description
or or term for. It has legitimate it it has legitimate meaning to it.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Right. As asinine as it may seem. It gives the individual that doesn't have that
identity or that voice, an identity and a voice.
Steven Payne
Sure.
STAFF 161
A lot of people in that community of the South Bronx appeared to be ostracized,
and disenfranchised. And in a big metropolis like New York City, right. Where
01:32:00it's, it seemed like everything was based on celebrity, and notoriety and flash
and glam. And, you know, and and who you are in the city. How you place? How are
you placed in the city? What do you mean, in this big place? New York, New York?
The tagging thing kind of more or less gave you that, your props.
Steven Payne
Yeah, yeah,
STAFF 161
The tagging thing gave you your props. Because especially if a lot of people
gave your props because alright one of the more prevalent tags that I saw.
Right. And I got, I was gravitating to. After you know a while I started to see
01:33:00him was Stay High 149. Right.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
And the reason that I kind of more or less gravitated towards his tag is because
his tag incorporated a lot of things that I really liked about tagging, or
writing it incorporated drawing. He was drawing. Right.
Steven Payne
Yeah, yeah.
STAFF 161
Sweet Duke was nothing he was drawing Sweet Duke tag Incorporated. a Playboy
bunny. He drew a Playboy Bunny's head. And he had on gloves and a martini glass.
He would draw with his tag in the interior. Right? Stay High's tag included. The
smoker character, the stick figure. Right? And with the halo, and everything
01:34:00from the the 60s sitcom The Saint. El Marko. drew the, the hat character you
know, from the El Marko pen felt tip pen. It had this logo with this you know
hat character with two eyes, right. Which I eventually adopted myself. So I kind
of took from them.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
that thing you know.
Kurt Boone
Okay, so Taki 183 New York Times article came out in 1971. So when in that period?
STAFF 161
Yeah, I wasn't I wasn't that's the signature era. See, that's the thing. Okay,
it Taki 183 Joe 182. These guys are what you refer to as the earliest of the
01:35:00signature era. Right?
Kurt Boone
This is around the time you're writing too right.
STAFF 161
Yeah, yeah. Eddie, Eddie 181 Eddie 181. That's another one that and the only
reason Eddie 181 kind of stood out for me was because he had my name Eddie.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
you know. And I said, you know, so Wow. There's somebody that has my name that's
tagging. Right? But he had a plain tag.
Kurt Boone
Oh,
STAFF 161
right. He got to plain tag. Right? I'm Kool Kevin One. And Kool Kevin One. And
Kool Herc. right now. Now. Their tags were pretty dramatic, too, in the sense
that they were drawings.
Steven Payne
Okay,
STAFF 161
Kool Herc drew a face with his tag, a very crude face. And Kool Kevin. He
spelled it K O O L for Kool. With the O's he made eyes out of the O's with
01:36:00eyebrows. Right? Yeah. And, you know, and Incorporated arrows and stuff, you
know, along with the tag, so the thing with Taki and Joe 182 in the earliest of
the taggers. They weren't into the style of the tag, they were just writing a
very, you know, brief rendering, of um print.
Steven Payne
Sure, sure.
STAFF 161
Right. Their signature was very simplistic.
Kurt Boone
Yeah,
STAFF 161
very simplistic. With just the name. And the number. Referring to the area that
they came from the real attraction to me, I more or less came in, I more or less
came in into the stylistic era of of tagging, tagging, not not piecing the
01:37:00signature, they had a they had the regular signature era was very simple. tags.
And then it had the stylistic signature era. When you had people like El Marko
174 and Sweet Duke. And, and Phase Two, and Stay High One. Now the tags are
starting to look a little more dramatic. Bug 170 and Lee 160 That's a stylistic
era of signature tags.
Kurt Boone
And what year was was that?
STAFF 161
that that that is that's that's still that's still early 70s. Early that's like,
like 70, 71. Right? into 72. And even you can say, like, even like 69
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
because Stay High was was tagging in 69. To a certain degree. I saw some of his tags.
01:38:00
Steven Payne
Yeah.
Kurt Boone
Was he from the Bronx or did you know where he was from?
STAFF 161
He was yeah, he lived in the Bronx. Yeah, yeah. on 149th Street. And then he
went eventually moved to Harlem. Yeah. When were the the Broadway train line is
yard is is? Yeah. But he was he was he was initially in the Bronx. But, um,
yeah, so that's another factor. A lot of Bronx people. A lot of Bronx people,
you gotta understand that IRT, number 1, number 2 and number 5 train run from
the Bronx into the into Manhattan and clear into Brooklyn and back.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
So, um, you got a large three borough area where you would see taggers people
01:39:00who are writing graffiti. Right. Would would have access to those trains? The 2
and a 5 in in in the Bronx and Manhattan and in Brooklyn. Right, you would, you
would know that, that and you would see that? Well, you wouldn't know exactly.
Sometimes off the top, especially with like the Brooklyn guys.
Steven Payne
Sure.
STAFF 161
A lot of the Brooklyn guys didn't write the numbers. So you wouldn't know
exactly off the top where they was from. Right, like Spin. Right. and you
wouldn't know that. He was from Brooklyn at first.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
right. But eventually, a system came about later with more or less you could
find that out. that they was from Brooklyn or Flint. Right? Right. Or, you know,
01:40:00people like that. Right? You had, Flint 707 and Flint For Those That Dare right.
Um, you wouldn't know that they was cause the Brooklyn guys, they know, maybe
it's how the streets are organized, they didn't have a number system, or they
weren't really prevalent with adding a number to they tag as the people who were
from the Bronx. And and Manhattan. Right.
Steven Payne
Sure.
STAFF 161
And you had the most prevalent tagging. To be honest, right? Um, initially
wasn't the Bronx, it was like, with like, the Broadway lines.
Steven Payne
Sure.
STAFF 161
The 2 not the 2 but the 1 and 3,
Steven Payne
The 1 and the 3 okay.
STAFF 161
Right. Where Taki 183 and Joe 182. And those original guys were from
Kurt Boone
SJK SJK was number one and Mike,
01:41:00
STAFF 161
yeah, yeah, that's it. You know, you had those. You had those people from what
they refer to. WC 188.
Kurt Boone
Yeah, yeah.
STAFF 161
So Writer's Corner. 188. Right. Those those people, those people were like, the
most prevalent taggers of the signature era to tell you the honest Truth.
Steven Payne
Sure.
STAFF 161
Right. And then the Bronx was a close, a close, close second. Right.
Kurt Boone
So Writers Corner 188 it's Washington Heights. It's not
STAFF 161
It's Washington Heights yeah And that's where you had those people
Kurt Boone
Less than a mile away right. Yeah, that's
STAFF 161
what you had. And that's what kind of got me what the 161 thing? Because I, you
know, I adopted the 161 because I said 161st Street, intersected, um, Hewitt Place
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
So I had to, you know, represent, you know, my hood, that's what it was all
about. So, I had to add the 161. And then I acquired Staff.
01:42:00
Kurt Boone
Alright so please, right here that was my next question. When did you start
writing Staff?
STAFF 161
So, okay, so, so Staff, Staff came, came about, like, like, the early part of
70, when I um. in the culture of the street gang culture, and in the culture of
the day, you had these walking sticks, not what not doing like this, but you had
the ones that they would make you guys who walk around with golf clubs.
Kurt Boone
Whoa,
STAFF 161
With golf clubs, right. And, you know, you know, a 9-iron, you know a golf club,
and as a weapon and as a as a cool thing, you know, a walking stick right, and
then you had guys that would make their own right, you know, you know, get a
piece of a tree limb and cut out your own walking stick, and shellac it and hook
it up. You know what I'm saying it was part of the um, the whole thing the whole
01:43:00scene with the maybe the Afro central centric Look with the dashiki and the big afro.
Kurt Boone
Yeah,
STAFF 161
And you had the walking cane? Yeah. And I thought that was a cool thing. So I
attempted, I attempted to make my own walking stick. Right. Right. And, um, and
I probably got a little more exaggerated with it did, then I should have, which
I did. And that's because of, I was I was, I was influenced by popular culture a
lot. What I saw on TV, one of the main things all the luxuries that my mother
was able to afford us was that TV.
Steven Payne
Sure
STAFF 161
that big furniture TV that was in the house with the with the big antenna on
top, you know what I'm saying? And I got a lot of stuff from the TV. And one of
01:44:00the things like the movies that I I saw was Charlton Heston. And he's the
greatest story ever told on the 10 Commandments.
Steven Payne
Sure.
STAFF 161
And he played the part of Moses. And to me, I like superheroes in general. Yeah,
yeah. I like superheroes in general. Right. But he seemed like, you know, the
more dramatic, realistic superhero because he was just like a regular like guy
that was leading people but he had this this staff and the staff was this
superhero weapon. Right. He was fighting this whole big kingdom headed by
Pharaoh in Egypt, right. With his staff?
Kurt Boone
Yeah,
STAFF 161
right and leading the people and He would like use that staff to open up rivers
01:45:00and oceans and, and bring water out of a rock. And you know, he would it would
be his weapon. So when I seen the mostly the old yeah, mostly the older dudes in
the community like were making these walking sticks. And so I tried to, you
know, get one I believe it was Crotona Park or one of the Parks yeah Crotona
Park, I got a tree limb a tree limb I got, and try to carve out, you know, my
knife, pen knife, the tree limb, but the stick was too big. I didn't cut it
down, like, you know, so basically, I'm holding all the walking stick. And it's
like that it's a little bigger. Yeah. And you know, you know, you it's it
seconded as a weapon too
01:46:00
Steven Payne
Sure,
STAFF 161
With those those golf clubs and them walking sticks that guys were walking
around with they basically were weapons too. You know? So, basically, I left it
like that. Right? And so people was like, like, like, mocking me with it. Like,
hey what's that your staff? Yeah. So that was the whole thing that and I started
to hear that I always I already was kind of more or less focused on that I
wanted to get them um a tag that rivaled what was. I would see the tags I
started to see on the train right the Bug 170, Lee 163 and Stay High 149. And
then of course, one of my other taggers I admired was Super Cool 223.
Steven Payne
Okay,
STAFF 161
right. So I had, I wanted to get a tag that was very dramatic, like that, one of
01:47:00those tags. So, and, of course, nobody else had, and that was Staff. Because
they they started Hey, that's your Staff, hey Staff. You know what I'm saying
that were starting to mock be with that. So it's stuck the same thing with Mr. Ed.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Right. It's the whole thing, the whole thing with acquiring a tag, is that you
gotta understand again, everything is is time specific, you know, and just being
that Historical Society, history has a lot to say, on for human behavior, and
why things are the way they are? And where things came from. And so in history
was always one of my life, subjects cause I like to know what happened before.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
And why is it this way now? You know, and so, um, yeah. So the, the era of that
01:48:00time with the civil rights movement, and the black pow Power Movement was like,
there was this focus with, um, it was Martin Luther King. And it was Malcolm X.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
And they appeared to have different agendas. But it's really the same, but it's
approaching it different ways.
Steven Payne
Sure.
STAFF 161
Right. And remember, I said the Black Panther Party was right there in the neighborhood.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Right. And when I was in Staten Island Now, going back to Staten Island, good,
good. The foster, the parents that I lived with, were born into the Baptist Church.
Kurt Boone
Sure, sure.
STAFF 161
And the Baptist Church is where Martin Luther King was
01:49:00
Kurt Boone
a pastor. Yeah,
STAFF 161
yeah. He, that's what he came through in leadership in that church. And so that
church in Staten Island was used as an organizing base
Steven Payne
Sure,
STAFF 161
for some of his marches. And I actually me and my brother actually participated
in a few marches in Staten Island as little kids. Yeah. What Yeah, so Martin
Luther King, Malcolm X. Now, the thing was, so I had that experience marching,
you know, "we shall overcome" with Martin Luther King Movement. Now, the Malcolm
X perspective as far as approach to, you know, civil rights and black
nationalism. Right. And, and justice, you know, and Respect, human rights, right.
01:50:00
Steven Payne
Sure
STAFF 161
was a different approach. And he would say things like that kind of really
dawned on me. Is that Oh! You know, we don't even know our original names.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
We don't know you have the name that you have. Right was given to you. And you
don't even know that that name is is the name of your oppressor. And, and you
know, you don't even have your name.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
So that was another factor why I wanted to get a name. Right?
Kurt Boone
Yeah,
STAFF 161
Or an identity and a lot of taggers don't realize that during that period,
everything is time specific. It just didn't just happen just because you know
how to the blues, the blue sky, there was things political things, social things
happening during that period where people youth, I look at the whole thing as a
youth movement.
01:51:00
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
because, I believe there was a crossroads at that point. Not so much for the
adult black and brown people of the era, but for the youth, because the youth
had to get their their grip on where they're gonna go in society. So and that
brings the whole question of hip hop culture.
Kurt Boone
Yeah,
STAFF 161
yeah, so I was saying, um, the thing with like, hip hop culture, as they call it
now, hip hop culture.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
right. Now, just like I, I mentioned, that, on the street, in that community,
where I was there there was prevalent markings, markings what we referred to as
graffiti, that means basically, markings and sketchings, of, you know, things
01:52:00that's in the public form, that was this part of the community, it was part of
what I perceived the culture of that community, to basically mark your turf,
make your presence known by putting your your mark in the community, either in
the exterior or interior of that community. Right, it was just there, right?
They didn't just like oh some single person decided, you had people that were
prevalent in it, I, you know, but in that community, where I came up in, in late
60s, and early 70s, it was a prevalent thing that was this, you know, saturating
the community
Steven Payne
sure.
STAFF 161
The other thing, right, that was there, at the same time, in the community in
the public was, was what they refer to as emceeing and DJing.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
right. People would play their music, like they people would, you know, just put
01:53:00speakers in the windows and stuff like that, sure. And play music and now, you
know, and that's another thing that kind of was, was very, like, you know, you
know, new to me you know coming from Staten. It's people playing music loud in
the street, as if, you know, they are, you know, performing or doing that task.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
you know, as a duty, but the emceeing and DJing thing with the label that, you
know, DJing is playing records. And of course, the emceeing is master of
ceremony, someone hosting the playing of the records.
Steven Payne
Sure.
STAFF 161
Alright. that I knew was something that was on the street, especially in the
early 70s. And what people referred to as breakdancing. I knew that as a
gang-bands, gangs would get together, and they would, you know, do this
01:54:00celebratory type of, you know, thing festive thing. And it would be this wild
dancing, right? For a better word wild right where they would get out on the
ground and spin and flip and stuff like that. You know,
Steven Payne
I heard some of the Black Spades talk about the dances they used to do to "Soul
Power," but they would change at the Spade Power. And they had this whole dance routine.
STAFF 161
Yeah. Yeah, when they got together, and sometimes when maybe a little
intoxication or something like the dance routines would get a little wild they
would get on the ground. And so I seen that I seen that, right. And again, I'm
referring to this this whole social revolution for the Youth for Youth. Right.
As far as the arts.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
right. I'm drawing right? The vocal arts and the music arts and the dance arts.
01:55:00Right. All right. And remember, there was a deficit in the end, because the
schools had stopped, you know, hosting music and art classes. So. And then I
believe there was a disconnection between the old school or older generation of
those communities. And what the new generation or the younger youth of that time
wanted to be represented as
Steven Payne
Yeah, yeah.
STAFF 161
right. And like I said, one of the things was, you know, I want my own name, I
want my own identity.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Right. I understand ma, that you gave me, Edward. Right. And I appreciate
Edward, I understand what it means lord of riches and everything. But
01:56:00culturally, that's really not, you know, where my ancestors came from?
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
that's, I understand that I understand lord of riches. I like it. Beautiful.
Right? But, I'm not saying that. But you know, so consciously, that's what
through my actions, so I appreciate the name. But I like to get my own name. And
so Staff, because even Mr. Ed basically was given to me, and Corky was given to
me by a street gang. And Mr. Ed was something that I got from the kids in
school. That was mocking me with it, because, you know, my name is Edward.
Right. But Staff is basically something that I feel that I took on for myself.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
so aligning with that whole philosophy of Malcolm X, that we don't know, our
original names and our identity, he took X. Right? Because he didn't know his
01:57:00last name. Right. And so alright, from his cultural ancestry, right. And so, I
took Staff, and I, you know, I gave it an acronym a meaning to it, because all
names should have a meaning. Now, commonly be all What did you get Staff from?
You know, a staff is a group of people or something like that. Right?
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Right. And yes, that's the definition and that you might find in Webster
Dictionary, or, or it's, it's the apparatus where, you know, or the diagram
where you put musical notes on, you know, to might music on Yes, yeah. And
that's another definition. Right. You know but, you know, eventually I got I
made it an acronym. Right. Seek Truth Always, Faithfully Forever.
Steven Payne
Okay.
STAFF 161
So that's, you know, so I made it I gave it its own meaning with separate
01:58:00wording. Right. So, again, taking on that identity, I believe the youth wanted
to take on their own identity, the early writers, right. And be known as who
they want it to be known as. And also with expressions self expression, with the
dance and and with the music and how they listen to the music.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
right. And so you know, you know, like in 73 that Kool Herc broke off from
tagging He was an active tagging right. tagged with me and my brother and we on
the same got pictures with me him and and AJ on my brother on the same trains. I
saw him regularly at the meeting location for writers which he didn't come to
the writers bench that often but I would see him like, around Clinton High School.
01:59:00
Steven Payne
Okay,
STAFF 161
at the right on the corner in the square there. Where the bagel shop was there
was a meeting place like a little writer's corner or writer's bench meeting
location. For writers, so I would see see him there, Kool Herc. But he broke off
early. Right? Just like some of the early signature era people like Taki 183 and
Joe 182 and such like that, right? Junior 161 and El Marko 174 and Bug 170 and
Lee 163. Right. That that generation that era of taggers signature early
signature era taggers were kind of faded away And the more stylistic writers
02:00:00kind of more or less came to the front, I say stylistic writers, right? Still
signature era, this same signature, but the signature the calligraphy of the
writing became a lot more aesthetic.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
And dramatized, like I said, drawing. So, so drawing became a big factor with me
early on, or the whole whole graff writing scene.
Steven Payne
Sure.
STAFF 161
All right. Not so much that I wanted to be an artist, but more so that I realize
it brought more attention to the tag.
Steven Payne
Yeah, yeah.
STAFF 161
I mean, to me, it just like, Stay High 149's tag was a lot more appealing than
02:01:00the average tag.
Steven Payne
Yeah, yeah. He had an arrow, right?
STAFF 161
He had he had a S with the devil tail
Steven Payne
Oh with a devil tail. Yeah.
STAFF 161
Which I adopted.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
His tag was was was vertical stack.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
And, um, he had different um, figurative things he added to it. Like he would
cross his his H. With with a spliff. Right. Yeah, I like a lit spliff with a
with a trail of smoke coming from it. And he had the stick figure The Saint
character, The Smoker where he called it, with the halo, all that was bought
with quotation marks, similar to what Super Cool used too Super Cool wasn't a
dramatic drawing person. But embellishing the tag was, was is the primary thing
02:02:00I noticed with him with the Crown. Right. He drew the crown, he, he drew
grammatical things, like Super Cool 223 he wrote a D, and exclamation point, and
underlining, you know, or putting a ribbon under the 223. Drawing a cloud around
the tag. So basically embellishing, that's a different, that's a different
aspect of the signature era, again, the early Taki 183s and Joe 182s that's
moving into more of the aesthetics and the artistic factor.
02:03:00
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Of graffiti writing. That's even before major large pieces on the trains. Large
pieces on the trains didn't even come to' 72 and Super Cool did the first one.
Kurt Boone
Okay, on the train. Okay.
STAFF 161
Yeah,
Kurt Boone
outside.
STAFF 161
Yeah, yeah. Yeah so yeah. So, um, by 71, and even 70, you started seeing a few
tags that would be coming on the exterior of the trains. Right. And so it
started to build up now. A lot of people. Again, everything is time specific.
And you got to understand the political and social factors that what happened
happening in the Bronx.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
in in New York City, in the world at that time, why, why these things happen.
And again, New York going through a fiscal crisis and stuff like that. Right.
They weren't cleaning the trains.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
All right. Not no real maintenance. Right. And that became apparent, that became
02:04:00apparent when if you tagged a train in 1970 or something, and in 71, 72, you can
see that same tag on the train that you've seen that the same time that I put on
there. Like, almost two years ago, it's still there. So then how much
maintenance could he have been doing,
Steven Payne
yeah.
STAFF 161
Right. So that's why the factors. And the other factor. Right of the explosion
of it was, and I always say it couldn't happen to anywhere else. But New York City.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Right. And, and especially, you know, in the Bronx,
Steven Payne
yeah
STAFF 161
When I say in the Bronx, as they say that's the birth of hip hop culture. In the
area that devastated area that I came up in, right, with all of the misery and
02:05:00the dread that was happening there with the fires, the high infant mortality
rate, the drug overdoses, the gang violence and stuff like that. The the arson,
you know,
Steven Payne
yeah,
STAFF 161
it was out of control. Those people that were living in it, and especially the
youth, the youth, in that community still found the resolve, and the motivation
and inspiration to create their own cultural foundation, they was able to create
their own cultural foundation. And that's why I can't, you know, beyond me
understand why I could I do understand why some people think that, that, that,
that graffiti writing is not part of hip hop culture. It might not have been
02:06:00called that at the time. But it's still part of that youthful youth movement. It
is plain to me maybe see now I understand that maybe if you were in certain
neighborhoods, and you you just, you know, adopted, tagging writing your name,
that maybe you might not have an affiliation with the emceeing and DJing because
it wasn't happening in your, in your neighborhood. Maybe you listening to Led
Zeppelin and Rolling Stones. And that's cool. But I was I was, I, you know, from
the time that the Ghetto Brothers started jamming in my neighborhood, I got into
all of that I've been into Jimi Hendrix. All of that you know what I'm saying?
And, yeah, you know, Black Sabbath, you know, sure. I play guitar. I play guitar
02:07:00bass to this day.
Steven Payne
Okay.
STAFF 161
Yeah. And I played in numerous bands and heavy metal, classic rock. You know,
Santana, definitely, you know, and definitely Santana, who was the biggest one?
You know, one of the major things that songs that they don't that the Ghetto
Brothers were playing was Santana.
Steven Payne
Sure.
STAFF 161
Is Latin rock band. So um, yes, I'm familiar with that music. And I've always
loved that music. But I understand the music that was on the street in my
community. Right. That was part of that youth movement, you youth culture
movement that in compares, tagging.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
emceeing and DJing and a dance style called breaking?
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Right. And basically, that put together in a package is called Hip Hop culture.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
I understand that totally. Right. And I understand where other people might not
02:08:00understand it, because it just wasn't in their community.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
right. But you got to understand I was in the heart, the heart of that seven
mile square, where they say that those things manifested and became what is now
known as hip hop culture. I was in, I grew up in that.
Steven Payne
Absolutely.
STAFF 161
I have a full insight into why, where and how that happened.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
Kurt Boone
So when did you paint your first exterior?
STAFF 161
Very good. So. Okay, so, um, so by 1970, right, there, again, like I said, I
recognized that there was numerous people in my community that right on my
block, not in community on my block, that were actual taggers I felt a
02:09:00responsibility to organize them. Right. And, and so we can be like, unified and
what we're doing on that block.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
Kurt Boone
Okay.
STAFF 161
All right. And that happened to happen to be other things I was involved in
whatever, you know, more or less, you know, not to become victimized.
Steven Payne
Sure.
STAFF 161
Right. Right. You know, you have so many other gangs and stuff and, you know,
and hostilities from it was just that, you gotta understand a lot of a lot of
the Bronx, Manhattan, New York, the country was segregated. Either it racially
or with street gangs or whatever there's just boundaries, you just don't go over
here and over here, whatever. And I'm talking about in the next block for you.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
even in the same community. My next block over there. That's dumb dudes over
here. Oh, come on. They don't go on their block, and so forth. Unless you know
what I'm saying you got permission to go over there, and so forth. Because like
02:10:00you know what you doing over here? it was, you know, because you just had the
hostility going on.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Right. And I always kind of like was dismayed with that, you know, that's not
unification. It's like, divide and conquer type stuff to me, you know?
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
So when I had found out about the whole system of things, that there were people
who were actively pursuing tagging, as a activity, not incidental to their
environment. Now, prior to that, my tagging was just incidental to my
environment, as I said, it was on the street, in my community. So I would tag
because it's part of what people around here do. I gotta put my tag up too I'm a
be part of this, I'm not gonna be left out I could tag too. And so forth I could
02:11:00tag and then I put my, my customized thing on it, with drawing stuff with the
tag, you know, and then later on, I realized they had other people who was
drawing things with they tag Sweet Dude and Stay High, you know, an El Marko
174. You know, And them guys could draw and things with their tag too. And so,
um, so. But there was this, this whole ah ah system. I noticed, eventually, of
taggers, who were tagging for the sake, and only for the sake of tagging alone,
and having their tag saturated through the city.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
And the nucleus of that I noticed happens to be from riding the train back and
forth to school. Right? Me and Danny and my younger brother, Adam, was the New
02:12:00York City transit system.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Right, and so, slowly, and surely, I noticed that it started to leave from the
interior, to the exterior of the trains. And that has to do with motion tagging.
Right being in at a Station. Alright, so So some of my first exterior tags, was
standing on Prospect Avenue, subway platform when the train pulled in. Right. I
would wait for the train and once the train pulls in and stop was tag on the
outside of the train,
Steven Payne
yeah,
STAFF 161
with Markers. Right, and then eventually spray paint, right. It's called motion
tagging. As the train, it pulls into the station, right stops to let passengers
on and off, right, and then that know those few seconds while its there in the
02:13:00station, you can get your tag off and that that contributed to the speed of tagging.
Steven Payne
Okay, yeah,
STAFF 161
that built out built up your, your propensity to tag real fast because you gotta
to hurry up because the train gonna pull out the station. Alright, so that
builds up your speed with tagging. So blue things happen. So, the Ebony Dukes.
So again, um Danny, who was one of my closest peers. Right on on that street,
living right next to the building right next door to me going to school with me.
Right, his uncle again, the families were knew each other. His uncle, I started
getting painting jobs with little hustling jobs with you know, you're ay, I'm
going to do paint this apartment with me. You want to come and help me out paint
today? Right? Yeah, you know, I want to paint you know, and get a little change
02:14:00and stuff like that. Yeah, actually, I'm gonna help you paint and I'm gonna
learn something were painting too. I like to paint.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
And then I'm getting into paint now and spray paint. But you know, I'm saying I
was painting. Go Karts. I was painting kites. I was painting because people got
to realize that I was a kid that could draw something gang colors.
Kurt Boone
Yeah, yeah.
STAFF 161
Right. So painting, right so anything with painting I was there. And Bertie was
Bertie is his name. Right? So um Bertie said. Yo, come I'm gonna paint some
apartments up here. Right? You want to come help out? You know, I give you a
little something. All right. You can learn something. Right? And I did. And as
he's painting, and I'm working with him I'm getting these war stories about this
organization, this crew this gang that he was associated with from Harlem called
02:15:00the Ebony Dukes? Right? And I'm just getting amazed with the war stories. And so
I'll become interested and, and the name, the Ebony Dukes it just has a ring to
it that, you know, I said, I'd like to know what happened to it. And the people
that was in it.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
And what's going on with that name? Did you preserve it?
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
right, that's a historical and preserving, you know, things that were a part of
the history as a, you just gonna let that name just go away. Next thing you
know, he makes the point that a lot of the people are you know no longer in
contact, when he says some of them are dead, some of them went to prison and
lost contact. And, you know, so, but I'm still adamant about preserving the
name. So I come up with, you know, eventually I come up with the idea. Because
now that I'm learning that there's a system there's a system that is, you know,
02:16:00maybe not as as firm, as it eventually became at that point.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
But there's a system of youth that are going through the city, right?
Deliberately to put up tags.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Not as it was with me at that point. It's just part of my existence here in this
neighborhood. But they would systematically go around and put up tags and
started to notice that in the subway system, and on the buses, and so wanting to
get away from the street gang environment, right after Black Benjie and so
forth. Right. And such, you know, and everything and and what was going on with
street gangs in the neighborhood and general, right. I believe Black Benjie was
02:17:00the conclusive thing. But there was things that happened before that. Yeah. Then
I said had number one the Ghetto Brothers. Were not. Were not akin to graffiti tagging.
Steven Payne
Sure. Yeah, they Yeah,
STAFF 161
I got that impression slowly. And that they didn't really, they weren't
appreciative. Right, even though they had some stuff up too, let's say, Ghetto
Brothers sons. Of certain certain division. Right. But in general, right. They,
remember, they had three garbage cans as the center patch. Yeah. And they worked
with the sanitation department to clean up empty lots and all that stuff in the
community. And, and part of the look of decay of so to speak, was the tags that
were in the neighborhood her in the graffiti. So I got the impression that the
leadership in it wasn't for graffiti writing. Sure. So now, I'm coming to a
02:18:00crossroads. Like, why am I part of something that is not really for graffiti writing?
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
right. But yet, I'm doing graffiti writing. And I'm like, taking like center
stage on that street with graffiti writing with all these other kids on my block
that's doing graffiti writing. So we got to organize under graffiti writing. And
that's when I eventually asked Bertie. Cab I used that name that Ebony Dukes to
make a graffiti club? And he didn't understand with graffiti club was, he said
you know, I mean, you want to use it use it. But you know,
Steven Payne
yeah,
STAFF 161
you know, you know, but you know, don't make another gang. Now you guys are
concerned about being a gang. But I said it's not gonna be a gang. We're not
02:19:00gonna be a gang, you know, so we're gonna be a guys that do graffiti, writing?
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Okay, you know? Okay. Do your thing. So that's in the spring of 1970. Right. I
established the Ebony Dukes, GC standing for graffiti crew. So that happened in
the spring of 1970. And so the people the first initial people that was in that
was like seven people from Hewitt Place. Oh, yeah. So that was on myself. My
brother Adam. And of course Danny who was next door who wrote Adam wrote AJ One,
but at that time, I was Staff 161. 161st Street intersecting the street, on
Hewitt Place? So Staff 161 Right. My brother Adam, who wrote AJ which is his
02:20:00initials for his government name, but it also stood for All Jive 161 he also
wrote Adam, Adam 12.
Kurt Boone
Okay.
STAFF 161
Right.
Kurt Boone
Like a cop.
STAFF 161
Yeah, but everything was in the sitcom. Remember, you gotta understand, to see
how early graffiti tagging was influenced by popular culture, especially stuff
and things that were on TV and everything during that period.
Steven Payne
Sure.
STAFF 161
Again, I say everything is time specific. And a lot of people discount that and
not understand that was happening socially, politically and culturally of the
time. influenced what eventually happened? Right. So Adam, right, myself, Adam,
Danny next door, who started to write Dynamite 161.
Steven Payne
Okay,
STAFF 161
right. And later on, he took on Dr. Soul One, right up the street from us.
Right. What's Dub, right? Who lived on the end of Hewitt Place that was closer
02:21:00to Longwood Avenue.
Steven Payne
Okay,
STAFF 161
right. D U B. No, yeah. Yeah. And so, um, eventually, he starts writing Topaz
when I gave him that tag. Again here's my leadership role is coming in that I'm
giving people tags now. And directing people with graffiti and stuff like that,
you know, so, um, I'm kind of like, you know, assuming that role of the graffiti
guy in the neighborhood.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Right. Under that new title, the Ebony Dukes GC. Right. So Dub becomes Topaz.
Right. All right. Um, Topaz One. And then up the street was Kay. Who lived on
Hewitt Place near closer to almost like 150 or closer to the Longwood Avenue.
02:22:00Right, but on the other side from from from Topaz. Kenny's is writing Hot Sauce
575, which had happened to have been, I believe he's hit the building number he
was he was on remember. Eight sets I'm 858. So further up, and further down
really? is 575. So Hot Sauce 575 or H S 575 for short. Right, was his tag. And
then right here on 156 feet on who would place again, right is Kenny, who was
the the Puerto Rican kid? That was part of the crew. Right, Kenny? I'm sorry not
Kenny but Cookie,
Steven Payne
cookie,
STAFF 161
Cookie, we refer to him as we knew him on the street as right he starts to write
King Kool 156, Right. King Kool 156. Right.
Kurt Boone
I love these names.
Steven Payne
Yeah
02:23:00
STAFF 161
right. And then, um, okay.
Kurt Boone
And that's six African Americans and one Hispanic.
STAFF 161
Yes. Yeah.Yeah. Okay. Um, and then, um, last but not least, um Paul, who was
part of one of the bigger families or the oldest in one of the bigger families
in the neighborhood. He was a Savage Skull. He started writing Super Slick 156
So that was the nucleus of the original. The Ebony Duke Crew,
Steven Payne
yeah.
STAFF 161
Ebony Dukes GC crew that started there on the block. And eventually, we added
all members from all over the Bronx, and, and into Manhattan, and into Brooklyn,
in eventually, Queens and stuff, you know,
02:24:00
Kurt Boone
So where did membership cards come from? Because you would get memberships cards
like boys, the Boys Club of America card.
STAFF 161
Well, It was like, um, again, um, I started to pick up on things that were on
that, um, I felt like we were left out at
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
out of in those communities. And you had these exclusive clubs of the day, that
or the whole idea of being in a club, and membership in a club was as seen as an
honorary thing. Right, or, and to be excluded from that. Right? Or was a less
than honorary thing.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
right. Yeah. Um, you know, you're not part of this, you know, you don't, you
02:25:00know, come to our standards of being part of this.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Right. And one of the, the affirmations, or the credentials of being part of
these special clubs is some kind of a badge, or identification.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
So, um, I wanted to, like, try to address that, right. And I came up with the
idea of making membership cards. So I would hand draw, I would go to like,
Woolworths and boost, or rack, these index cards, you know, index cards in the
package with the lines. And, and, and color color. Felt Tip markers, and both
package, felt tip markers. And I would hand draw membership cards and started to
02:26:00give them out.
Kurt Boone
Right away. or took a couple years before?
STAFF 161
I did that, like, right away.
Kurt Boone
Wow,
STAFF 161
I did that right away. Because here's the thing, right? We didn't have we
weren't a outdoor street gang no more like that. So we didn't have colors?
Steven Payne
Sure. Yeah.
STAFF 161
We didn't have we weren't wearing colored. So how do we identify ourselves?
Other than the fact of our tag and we writing the tag?
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Right. So I said, Well, okay. To certify your membership, their membership in
the crew, this rep. Okay. It didn't happen immediately on the street. It started
to happen. When, um, I started getting membership outside of the neighborhood.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
02:27:00
STAFF 161
Right. And I had to, I felt it was the necessary for the existing membership, to
know that the person that's saying that they're part of the crew can prove it by
having my hand hand drawn membership card. Alright, so. So more or less akin to
that. I'm certifying people. That is not we don't know, within our circle, yeah,
that they're part of the crew. So I started drawing membership cards for people
that were outside of our community.
Steven Payne
You know, if anyone still has one of the membership cards?
STAFF 161
yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A couple of people on Fam and has one. Yeah, others,
you know, from the Uptown crew that we had uptown. I stuck up past 180th Street.
Steven Payne
Sure, sure, sure.
STAFF 161
Blade and Crotchy and, and Comic those guys, you know.
Kurt Boone
I want to try on your next next round. You want to get into some writers like
02:28:00playing? But we didn't speak much about the women in this, but I know a few
women in the Ebony Dukes?
STAFF 161
Yeah. Yeah. There was on the, on the street on the street that we was at, right,
eventually. They were females? Yeah, you gotta understand again, everything is
time specific. And, and certain things of that time era. That you know, like,
ladies, were, you know, left out of the equation, you know, this is not for you,
you know, this is for guys, man. We you ain't gonna do what we doing.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
you know. So, you know, you had that type of male chauvinistic type of mentality
at the time that was, again, everything is time specific. But you had like the,
what we refer to as the tomboy type girls, that was like, they could fight just
02:29:00as much as the dudes.
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
so to speak, are all just as rough as that dudes, so to speak, and you know, and
they would, you know, hell bent on that, you know, that we can do we you can do
it better.
Steven Payne
Yeah.
STAFF 161
Right. So, there was a few on the block right us. That was like that. One was
Line 149 who lived in my building, right?
Kurt Boone
How do you spell that?
STAFF 161
L I N E
Steven Payne
LINE okay.
Kurt Boone
Oh, Line 149.
STAFF 161
Line 149
Kurt Boone
149 Okay,
STAFF 161
all right. And there was a Sweet Tea 163. Right. Darlene. Yeah, who will became
some of the first female affiliations and then later on, when we kind of
branched out in the neighborhood. We had Kivu Kivu One, you know. Yeah. So, but
02:30:00it wasn't like a lot of females who were members at that time, but they were
there. They were there.
Kurt Boone
Alright, so they know I'll let you go, Barbara,
STAFF 161
and Eva 62 Okay, so they were basically obscure in the sense that I didn't see
them a lot, but there was you know major female taggers right. That were around
right during the period. Early signature era
Steven Payne
Yeah,
STAFF 161
they didn't come in too much in the stylistic era, or the piecing era.
Kurt Boone
Were they members also?
STAFF 161
No, they weren't they weren't part I don't remember them being part of any crew.
Kurt Boone
Any crew. okay. Yeah. Yeah, so I think what we're gonna do cuz you have to
leave, we use have each artist to leave a tag for us for the library. Alright,
great. All right, thank you.
02:32:0002:31:00
